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The Abortion Debate
AmHere
#1 Posted : Monday, February 15, 2010 6:12:43 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 93
Regardless of the different opinions, I cant help but notice that the most vocal proponents always seem to be male doctors.

Is it just me who hears the loud 'Kaching!' of a cash register in the background each time they speak?
tony stark
#2 Posted : Monday, February 15, 2010 11:16:09 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
LOL!!! It's just you.
Here are is a small lesson.
Fact 1. Just because abortion is illegal doesn't mean it doesn't occur.
Fact 2. If abortion is made legal it will be provided legally at health facilities including public facilities.
Fact 3. With increase supply price goes down. Doctors wont make any money. There is always an articial spike in demand but that is only because the abortions that were happening and not being recorded will now be recorded.
Fact 4. Doctors (male and female) can still perform abortion. It will be hard to prove that the abortion they performed was not in the best interest of the patient etc.
Wacha propaganda and lets discuss bano!
muganda
#3 Posted : Monday, February 15, 2010 11:44:57 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
@AmHere, you may be mistaken. Actually rarely have I seen an Obs/Gyn, male or female, who's had a long practice that does not pause pensively when the issue of abortion is brought up - it's not an easy question?

When I was younger, things were so black and white, you know prostitutes are evil, abortion is wrong...

But I agree, women are better speakers on the issue. By the way do you know the lady in Roe vs Wade (Jane Roe) later clarified she was not raped, never had an abortion and later converted to pro-life Catholic? Life...
AmHere
#4 Posted : Monday, February 15, 2010 12:34:12 PM
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Joined: 7/7/2009
Posts: 93
Was playing the devil's advocate so don't take my comments too seriously. Just trying to get into the doctors' minds. But technically, women might be better speakers even though it take two to tango.

However:

1. I have never really understood the oft-quoted rationale that "because it happens lets make it legal." Aren't there so many things that are illegal that happen every day that could be legalised using the same rationale?

2. On demand, I think you have a point that increased demand will lower unit cost. But no one can say for sure whether that will necessarily lead to lower profits for the good daktaris.

By the way, I think neither the pro-choice nor the pro-life side is advocating an absolute no or absolute yes. Both seem agreed in principle that there are circumstances in which abortion can take place. The difference seems to be the exact circumstances in which it should be legal for it to happen.
muganda
#5 Posted : Monday, February 15, 2010 2:58:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
@AmHere, the implication of illegal is daunting.
See now a young girl at 15 falls pregnant due to extenuating circumstances (naivety, rape). Left all alone, no hope in the world, she looks for the only way out - backstreet abortion.

That girl is a criminal and defiling party can either escape or plead innocence. But can this be the basis for advocating pro-choice?

I think answer may lie in more vigilance and provision of better support. In cases where lady aborts, guy should be cited with conspiracy. In cases where lady states she'd like to abort, state pays all medical bills/upkeep for carrying child to term and arranges for adoption.

But then, I'm only a man...
nmt
#6 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2010 10:49:28 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 1/7/2010
Posts: 27
Location: nairobi
this abortion debate seems to be getting to my never.
can we not let the pregnant girl decide?
with or without the legality involved, abortion will take place, only that this time around it might take the life of the mother along!!!.
where is the right of the woman in this case?
muganda
#7 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:36:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
@nmt, and what is the right of the unborn child in this case? Oops! maybe they have no rights.

Can she really decide alone? And what of the law of nature, society, father...(complex)
muganda
#8 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:37:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
No sooner than ... New study by researchers in Africa found men are to blame for alot. It seems my hypothesis could be true - if society blamed itself rather than the woman with child, abortions would probably go down substantially.


Excerpt:
Although older men were responsible for pregnancies among young girls, they threatened to kill their own daughters who got children out of wedlock.

Men condemned abortion, viewing it as women’s immoral strategy of concealing their waywardness, unfaithfulness, and promiscuity.

In the study, women did not advocate or defend abortion, but neither did they condemn it. To them, the decision to seek abortions was not only legitimately theirs, but also one that men need not necessarily be informed about.

http://www.nation.co.ke/...1/-/54d0wq/-/index.html
Intelligentsia
#9 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2010 12:40:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/1/2009
Posts: 2,436
How come it is always men who shout loudest (look at this thread's contributors already) when it comes to abortion issues?

The last time this was discussed in Parliament, the men (always the men!)were so emotive they turned rabidly physical and exchanged fisticuffs and flung chairs at each other! Why? It is not their bodies that will either carry the pregnancy to term or be subjected to an abortion and attendant risks therein. So why? Inawawashia hao nini jameni?

To me there are so many instances where pro-choice is favourable (e.g. to save the mother's life) but also similar instances where why pro-life (wazuans were nt aborted!) is also favourable and this should be reviewed on a case by case basis. We dont have to embrace either extremes!!

It is this idea of trying to paint with a broad brush and simplify the whole thing to either pro- or anti-lfe that complicates matters and evokes intense emotions.

The Abortion debate, the Euthanasia (mercy killing)debate and the how-to-end prostitution debate are as old as mankind - have been debated for centuries, are being debated and will continue to be debated for centuries long after we have been converted to fossil fuel. And there will be no consensus - history teaches us so.

it is futile ...even in countries where abortion, euthanasia and prostitution have been (collectively or individually) legalized there still exists difference in opinion that was only subordinated to the tyranny of the majority and this may change again once the current minority becomes the majority!



masukuma
#10 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:23:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,822
Location: Nairobi
The all Arguments by Pro-choice people seem never to recognize the rights of the Child. If its Ok to abort, why do we stop at birth? Lets Cull all these chokoras that inconvenience us. Pro-Choice activists selfishly recognize the rights of the mother yet it is a scientific fact that the baby is a complete system on their own (same as the chokora) and only feeds from the mother. On the flip-side the Church and Pro-Life people have not presented an alternative channel to would-be mothers who don't want to keep the baby (thus taking a shortcut by murdering the same). The way out of it is actually the establishment of a tax-payer paid system of taking care of unwanted children and at the same time Banning Abortions - The penalty of abortion should then be the same as Murder (since its just as premeditated).
As a society that has 300K abortions happen each year, thats more people being killed than what happened in Haiti - We should be ashamed, Yet we don't even flinch at the decadence of our values.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
muganda
#11 Posted : Tuesday, February 16, 2010 2:40:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,907
@masukuma, your legal penalty needs to include the man somewhere

@Intelligensia smile heartfelt and insightful - Are you a woman? As a man I'm slightly embarrased on reading your post
tony stark
#12 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2010 6:21:18 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
@Masukuma. Is there a role of contraceptives in your frame work. I believe the catholic church and muslims are against condoms and birth control. How will you stop women from having children if we dont help them? It is very naive to think that people will stop having sex just because you tell them to.
But you could introduce a punishment such as parading people in public naked for having premarital or extramarital sexual affairs.
mwanitu
#13 Posted : Wednesday, February 17, 2010 11:21:30 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/3/2009
Posts: 17
To my knowledge, there are two things which are misunderstood in such a debate;
1. When abortion is acceptable
2. When Life beggins

I would like to point out that the fact that abortion may be acceptable in certain circumstances does not mean that life doesn't start at conception. I agree that not all conceptions lead to a baby, but that doesn't nullify the fact that life beggins at conception! Now once we have that in perspective, we can therefore debate on what one should do when conception threatens the life of the woman.

Having said that, the society must come up with ways of taking care of children who are born in untoward circumstances, a programme say of adoption. The circumstances should therefore be clearly defined and an example would be Rape.

Finally, I don't agree that this whole debate should be left to women alone, it is clearly a societal debate. We only need to be reasonable and above all human when engaged in this debate.
AM NOT A SAINT, UNLESS A SAINT TO YOU IS A SINNER WHO KEEPS ON TRYING
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