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Ocampo insights on ICC cases
harrydre
#11 Posted : Sunday, February 01, 2015 4:09:12 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
masukuma wrote:
yani people wanted Billy Wailer and Johnny Mtembezi out of the ballot through hook or crook? had they sensed defeat? hii ujinga ya IEBC this IEBC that is nonsense! blaming the messenger!


Ni ile watu ya kulamba lamba mata*o ya wazungu.

IoNs, Uncle Bob says Africa must pull out. Mrs. RAO could get jobless soon.

http://www.the-star.co.k...-pledges-million-dollars
i.am.back!!!!
tycho
#12 Posted : Sunday, February 01, 2015 8:43:35 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
quicksand wrote:
A scathing, scholarly article on former ICC prosecutor Moreno Ocampo.
Very long, get a drink and take a piss break first smile
http://www.worldaffairsj...secutor-without-borders
After reading this I dont think Bensouda can conclude any case initiated by Ocampo.


So how did Ocampo get to be this lousy? Or, how did ICC get to hire a lousy prosecutor?
quicksand
#13 Posted : Sunday, February 01, 2015 9:03:27 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
quicksand wrote:
A scathing, scholarly article on former ICC prosecutor Moreno Ocampo.
Very long, get a drink and take a piss break first smile
http://www.worldaffairsj...secutor-without-borders
After reading this I dont think Bensouda can conclude any case initiated by Ocampo.


So how did Ocampo get to be this lousy? Or, how did ICC get to hire a lousy prosecutor?

Very often, slick talkers get the prized job, and the competent people are left by the wayside, struggling to find words to put forth their ideas. Or political correctness.
Closer home, look at the case of former AG Amos Wako. He was a brilliant, moral and upright human rights lawyer, and it is this record that earned him the appointment to Attorney General. Once on the throne, he became a bumbling, incoherent puppet who will be mainly remembered for entering nolle prosequis in cases pitting really aggrieved citizens against powerful people in government.
Its tragic. The ASP should have done a very thorough job when recruiting the first prosecutor, now ICC is tainted from birth. They should dissolve the court, close its sordid chapter of professional misconduct and build a new one from scratch unencumbered by the current sorry precedents.
tycho
#14 Posted : Monday, February 02, 2015 4:55:18 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
quicksand wrote:
tycho wrote:
quicksand wrote:
A scathing, scholarly article on former ICC prosecutor Moreno Ocampo.
Very long, get a drink and take a piss break first smile
http://www.worldaffairsj...secutor-without-borders
After reading this I dont think Bensouda can conclude any case initiated by Ocampo.


So how did Ocampo get to be this lousy? Or, how did ICC get to hire a lousy prosecutor?

Very often, slick talkers get the prized job, and the competent people are left by the wayside, struggling to find words to put forth their ideas. Or political correctness.
Closer home, look at the case of former AG Amos Wako. He was a brilliant, moral and upright human rights lawyer, and it is this record that earned him the appointment to Attorney General. Once on the throne, he became a bumbling, incoherent puppet who will be mainly remembered for entering nolle prosequis in cases pitting really aggrieved citizens against powerful people in government.
Its tragic. The ASP should have done a very thorough job when recruiting the first prosecutor, now ICC is tainted from birth. They should dissolve the court, close its sordid chapter of professional misconduct and build a new one from scratch unencumbered by the current sorry precedents.


So Ocampo was a slick talker who said the politically correct things, just like Wako, got the job of putting these words into action but failed to deliver, just like Wako did.

And consequently, especially for Ocampo's case, the whole institution he represented has to be overhauled in order to rectify his inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

Question is; is the premise in the first paragraph sufficient cause for the conclusion? For example, did Wako's ineffectiveness lead to an overhaul of the AG's office?

What about the constraints of job itself? Like, Wako got the job because he said what was politically correct and in fact sustained correctness through his tenure and consequently kept his job to the end just like Ocampo did.

Is there a reasonable defense for Ocampo's mode of operation? Budgetary and human resource constraints perhaps? May be too wide a scope?

In the end, this whole ICC story doesn't add up. Even the allegations on the above article aren't convincing enough.





butterflyke
#15 Posted : Monday, February 02, 2015 7:19:43 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 3,024
Location: Hapa
quicksand wrote:
tycho wrote:
quicksand wrote:
A scathing, scholarly article on former ICC prosecutor Moreno Ocampo.
Very long, get a drink and take a piss break first smile
http://www.worldaffairsj...secutor-without-borders
After reading this I dont think Bensouda can conclude any case initiated by Ocampo.


So how did Ocampo get to be this lousy? Or, how did ICC get to hire a lousy prosecutor?

Very often, slick talkers get the prized job, and the competent people are left by the wayside, struggling to find words to put forth their ideas. Or political correctness.
Closer home, look at the case of former AG Amos Wako. He was a brilliant, moral and upright human rights lawyer, and it is this record that earned him the appointment to Attorney General. Once on the throne, he became a bumbling, incoherent puppet who will be mainly remembered for entering nolle prosequis in cases pitting really aggrieved citizens against powerful people in government.
Its tragic. The ASP should have done a very thorough job when recruiting the first prosecutor, now ICC is tainted from birth. They should dissolve the court, close its sordid chapter of professional misconduct and build a new one from scratch unencumbered by the current sorry precedents.


The story of Amos Wako still amazes and saddens me to date. Brilliant mind but 'null prosequi' when he worked for govt. A shame

I wonder how he is performing as a senator
Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee. - Muhammad Ali🐝
quicksand
#16 Posted : Monday, February 02, 2015 9:25:40 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
quicksand wrote:
tycho wrote:
quicksand wrote:
A scathing, scholarly article on former ICC prosecutor Moreno Ocampo.
Very long, get a drink and take a piss break first smile
http://www.worldaffairsj...secutor-without-borders
After reading this I dont think Bensouda can conclude any case initiated by Ocampo.


So how did Ocampo get to be this lousy? Or, how did ICC get to hire a lousy prosecutor?

Very often, slick talkers get the prized job, and the competent people are left by the wayside, struggling to find words to put forth their ideas. Or political correctness.
Closer home, look at the case of former AG Amos Wako. He was a brilliant, moral and upright human rights lawyer, and it is this record that earned him the appointment to Attorney General. Once on the throne, he became a bumbling, incoherent puppet who will be mainly remembered for entering nolle prosequis in cases pitting really aggrieved citizens against powerful people in government.
Its tragic. The ASP should have done a very thorough job when recruiting the first prosecutor, now ICC is tainted from birth. They should dissolve the court, close its sordid chapter of professional misconduct and build a new one from scratch unencumbered by the current sorry precedents.


So Ocampo was a slick talker who said the politically correct things, just like Wako, got the job of putting these words into action but failed to deliver, just like Wako did.

And consequently, especially for Ocampo's case, the whole institution he represented has to be overhauled in order to rectify his inefficiency and ineffectiveness.

Question is; is the premise in the first paragraph sufficient cause for the conclusion? For example, did Wako's ineffectiveness lead to an overhaul of the AG's office?

What about the constraints of job itself? Like, Wako got the job because he said what was politically correct and in fact sustained correctness through his tenure and consequently kept his job to the end just like Ocampo did.

Is there a reasonable defense for Ocampo's mode of operation? Budgetary and human resource constraints perhaps? May be too wide a scope?

In the end, this whole ICC story doesn't add up. Even the allegations on the above article aren't convincing enough.






Perhaps their probity couldn't stand the corrupting influence of power and money. Such people only fight when they are hungry, cause then they have nothing to lose. There are a few who resist corrupting influence, and when it becomes such that they can no longer function, they quit leaving with their dignity intact....people like Githongo, Leakey when they got government appointments. I think Moi's and Kibaki's intentions were to window-dress things but they got more than they bargained for.
Even with constraints of the job, if on the balance of things the outcome is considerably more bad than good, then there is something wrong somewhere. The article says Ocampo consistently ignored advice from his staff and advisers, went about the job in a manner which is unorthodox to established traditions of collecting evidence and prosecuting cases.
May be he was dancing to a tune the rest of the world couldn't hear.
Anyway, I think the court in its present form is fundamentally flawed. It is not immune to pressure not only from the powerful West, but also from a small country like Kenya. Sure, it was a deterrent, otherwise its likely there would have been violence in 2007 -on the flip side, powerful people have been observing and they know it can be manipulated. Its like when bacteria becomes resistant to antibiotics.
tycho
#17 Posted : Tuesday, February 03, 2015 7:58:00 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@quicksand, do you think it's possible for us to have an international or continental court that's not amenable to pressure from any of the states sponsoring it?
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