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Capital Gains Tax on EQUITIES
ProverB
#41 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 11:38:28 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/12/2010
Posts: 1,199
Location: Eastlander
If I sell my Centum today.. The 5% tax on gains is actually less than the transaction fees broker will charge me. Why not call for justification of high transaction fees?
..Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven...Matt5:16
- 1769 Oxford King James Bible 'Authorized Version
MaichBlack
#42 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 11:41:46 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
mlennyma wrote:
You needed atmost 2.5% to count your eggs before,now you need 7.5 % to count anything,its a big jump.



streetwise wrote:

HAPANA

This is the maths. If you gain 2.5% as before you will pay 5% CGT on the 2.5%.

This translates to about 0.125%, so you should be saying the your need atleast 2.625%. Simplify 2.7% is good to go

A big NO to both of you!!! Why? You still need the same percentage as earlier to break even. And if you simply break even you don't pay ANY CGT. Get it?

And after that, you only pay 5 cent to every shilling you make.

But the main issue here is that if you make nothing, you pay nothing so you earlier break even point will suffice.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
mlennyma
#43 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 12:10:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,183
Location: nairobi
May be my maths lesson wasn't covered well,I thought if my gain from my buying and selling price is 200,I will have paid commision of 1.8 or 2.1% of the total transaction value as commision and charges and further pay 5% of my 200 gain
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
streetwise
#44 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 12:13:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 6/23/2011
Posts: 1,740
Location: Nairobi
Any one who works with KRA please share the formulae.

I thought this is simple CGT=5%( original price*quantity - sell price*quantity)

OOPs when you get a negative then what..more education required

MaichBlack
#45 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 12:19:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
streetwise wrote:
Any one who works with KRA please share the formulae.

I thought this is simple CGT=5%( original price*quantity - sell price*quantity)

OOPs when you get a negative then what..more education required


CGT = 5% * (Selling price - (buying price + commissions))

Any loses will be offset from future CGT in the same income stream but not necessarily same stock/share.

What is not clear is if you offset the entire loss or 5% of the loss in future gains.
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
Mart_Consult
#46 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 12:59:46 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/7/2013
Posts: 127
Location: Nairobi, Kenya
Sparkly et al, help me out on this one kindly...

A more interesting scenario is how will they treat bonus shares issued...for instance, after Longhorn's Bonus isssue in the year just concluded, my average buying price came to 6.5...if I sold today at 10...and considering I bought the whole lot at 16...will they consider it as a Capital loss or recalculate and use 6.5 as the buying price (which is not feasible as I actually paid 16/share, the rest were at 0/share) ???

Same goes for rights issues...my average buying price goes down after most rights...so shouldn't I be claiming Cap losses on all these trades???
I went into the (Ferry) industry knowing the same thing I knew with all other businesses I went into- Nothing. Then I built it from there. - Sheldon Adelson (Titans at the Table- Giants of Macau)
MaichBlack
#47 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 1:14:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
This thing is tricky.

Another scenario.

You buy 10000 shares of A at 10/=, then another 10000 of the same at 20/=, another 10000 at 30/= etc. Then sell 5000 share of the same at 25/=, how do they calculate the buying price? Do they use the average? Is that fair?
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
whiteowl
#48 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 1:57:39 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/16/2014
Posts: 1,420
Location: Bohemian Grove
MaichBlack wrote:
This thing is tricky.

Another scenario.

You buy 10000 shares of A at 10/=, then another 10000 of the same at 20/=, another 10000 at 30/= etc. Then sell 5000 share of the same at 25/=, how do they calculate the buying price? Do they use the average? Is that fair?

There is no way to know which lot of shares is being sold when you're selling 5000 unless each share is assigned a digital fingerprint
Swenani
#49 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 2:05:33 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
MaichBlack wrote:
mlennyma wrote:
You needed atmost 2.5% to count your eggs before,now you need 7.5 % to count anything,its a big jump.



streetwise wrote:

HAPANA

This is the maths. If you gain 2.5% as before you will pay 5% CGT on the 2.5%.

This translates to about 0.125%, so you should be saying the your need atleast 2.625%. Simplify 2.7% is good to go

A big NO to both of you!!! Why? You still need the same percentage as earlier to break even. And if you simply break even you don't pay ANY CGT. Get it?

And after that, you only pay 5 cent to every shilling you make.

But the main issue here is that if you make nothing, you pay nothing so you earlier break even point will suffice.


Let me try to put in in figures

If you by 1,000 shares worth 100,0000 and sellthe 1,000 shares at 150,000.

The CGT will be 5%(150,0000-Transfer costs-100,0000)
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
theking
#50 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 2:09:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/25/2010
Posts: 344
MaichBlack wrote:
This thing is tricky.

Another scenario.

You buy 10000 shares of A at 10/=, then another 10000 of the same at 20/=, another 10000 at 30/= etc. Then sell 5000 share of the same at 25/=, how do they calculate the buying price? Do they use the average? Is that fair?


they will have to choose an accounting principle to use, either FIFO (First in first out), LIFO (Last in last out) or weighted average method.
Othelo
#51 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 2:14:35 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 1/20/2014
Posts: 3,528
Now is it right to blame GoK or Jubilee Gava on this one; putting us in limbo AGAIN!
Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
Swenani
#52 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 2:20:15 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
theking wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
This thing is tricky.

Another scenario.

You buy 10000 shares of A at 10/=, then another 10000 of the same at 20/=, another 10000 at 30/= etc. Then sell 5000 share of the same at 25/=, how do they calculate the buying price? Do they use the average? Is that fair?


they will have to choose an accounting principle to use, either FIFO (First in first out), LIFO (Last in last out) or weighted average method.


Since KRA requires you to keep records, they will expect you to calculate the CGT on the two batches differently using the actual acquisition cost
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
mlennyma
#53 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 2:36:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,183
Location: nairobi
Iam bitterly discussing this evil by jubilee gvt and being a business man the president doesn't also care,I think kibaki was better economically,only two counters are able to trade over a million shares and its towards market close,iam sure this has nothing to do with holidays or january but confusion in policy.
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Swenani
#54 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 3:02:32 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
streetwise wrote:
Any one who works with KRA please share the formulae.

I thought this is simple CGT=5%( original price*quantity - sell price*quantity)

OOPs when you get a negative then what..more education required




Its 5%(selling price*quantity-Buying price*quantity-less transactions costs-incidental costs)


How do you determine the net gain?

The net gain is the excess of the transfer value over the adjusted cost of the
property that has been transferred. It is this excess that is subjected to tax at 5%.

The Transfer value of the property is the amount or value of consideration or
compensation for transfer of the property less incidental costs on such transfer.

The Adjusted cost is the sum of the cost of acquisition or construction of the
property; expenditure for enhancement of value and/or preservation of the
property; cost of defending title or right over property, if any; and the incidental
costs of acquiring the property.

The adjusted cost shall be reduced by any amounts that have been previously
allowed as deductions under Section 15(2) of the Income Tax Act.

If you incur a loss, the loss is carried to be offset in future against a gain of similar nature

What happens when a loss is made?

The loss may be carried forward to be offset/deducted against a gain of a similar
nature (that is, a capital gain) at a future date.



If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
mlennyma
#55 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 3:09:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 6,183
Location: nairobi
In all this I read disputes,disputes and endless disputes of claims
"Don't let the fear of losing be greater than the excitement of winning."
Swenani
#56 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 3:17:46 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
Mart_Consult wrote:
Sparkly et al, help me out on this one kindly...

A more interesting scenario is how will they treat bonus shares issued...for instance, after Longhorn's Bonus isssue in the year just concluded, my average buying price came to 6.5...if I sold today at 10...and considering I bought the whole lot at 16...will they consider it as a Capital loss or recalculate and use 6.5 as the buying price (which is not feasible as I actually paid 16/share, the rest were at 0/share) ???

Same goes for rights issues...my average buying price goes down after most rights...so shouldn't I be claiming Cap losses on all these trades???


Let me try to calculate the gains for you using nominal figures

1.You bought 1,000 shares at Kshs 10 which translates to acquisition value of Kshs10,000
2.While still holding the shares,you are issued with 100 bonus shares
3.One year down the line you dispose off the 1,100 shares at Kshs 11

calculation of CGT(assumption is that transaction costs is 2.5%
First 1,000 shares
5%{(1000*11)-(1000*10)-275)}=36.25
Next 100shares
5%{(100*11)-(100*0)-27.5}=53.625

Total CGT to be paid=(36.25+53.625)=Kshs 89.875


If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
MaichBlack
#57 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 3:49:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
Swenani wrote:
Mart_Consult wrote:
Sparkly et al, help me out on this one kindly...

A more interesting scenario is how will they treat bonus shares issued...for instance, after Longhorn's Bonus isssue in the year just concluded, my average buying price came to 6.5...if I sold today at 10...and considering I bought the whole lot at 16...will they consider it as a Capital loss or recalculate and use 6.5 as the buying price (which is not feasible as I actually paid 16/share, the rest were at 0/share) ???

Same goes for rights issues...my average buying price goes down after most rights...so shouldn't I be claiming Cap losses on all these trades???


Let me try to calculate the gains for you using nominal figures

1.You bought 1,000 shares at Kshs 10 which translates to acquisition value of Kshs10,000
2.While still holding the shares,you are issued with 100 bonus shares
3.One year down the line you dispose off the 1,100 shares at Kshs 11

calculation of CGT(assumption is that transaction costs is 2.5%
First 1,000 shares
5%{(1000*11)-(1000*10)-275)}=36.25
Next 100shares
5%{(100*11)-(100*0)-27.5}=53.625


Total CGT to be paid=(36.25+53.625)=Kshs 89.875



Aren't bonus shares given in lieu of cash dividends and subjected to withholding tax??? How do you charge withholding tax and CGT on the same shares???

And in any case bonus shares are not free!!! You actually "buy" them "by force". The money you would have been given as dividends pays for the "bonus share". How then do you use an acquisition cost of 0 in your calculations??
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
Swenani
#58 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 4:04:20 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 8/15/2013
Posts: 13,237
Location: Vacuum
MaichBlack wrote:
Swenani wrote:
Mart_Consult wrote:
Sparkly et al, help me out on this one kindly...

A more interesting scenario is how will they treat bonus shares issued...for instance, after Longhorn's Bonus isssue in the year just concluded, my average buying price came to 6.5...if I sold today at 10...and considering I bought the whole lot at 16...will they consider it as a Capital loss or recalculate and use 6.5 as the buying price (which is not feasible as I actually paid 16/share, the rest were at 0/share) ???

Same goes for rights issues...my average buying price goes down after most rights...so shouldn't I be claiming Cap losses on all these trades???


Let me try to calculate the gains for you using nominal figures

1.You bought 1,000 shares at Kshs 10 which translates to acquisition value of Kshs10,000
2.While still holding the shares,you are issued with 100 bonus shares
3.One year down the line you dispose off the 1,100 shares at Kshs 11

calculation of CGT(assumption is that transaction costs is 2.5%
First 1,000 shares
5%{(1000*11)-(1000*10)-275)}=36.25
Next 100shares
5%{(100*11)-(100*0)-27.5}=53.625


Total CGT to be paid=(36.25+53.625)=Kshs 89.875



Aren't bonus shares given in lieu of cash dividends and subjected to withholding tax??? How do you charge withholding tax and CGT on the same shares???

And in any case bonus shares are not free!!! You actually "buy" them "by force". The money you would have been given as dividends pays for the "bonus share". How then do you use an acquisition cost of 0 in your calculations??


For those who have done financial management and corporate finance,Bonus shares are NEVER and SHOULD'NT be issued in lieu of dividend, bonus shares are more of a share split than dividends-they increase the number of shares but not the share capital-If they were dividends you would'nt expect the dilution of the share price.

A company has no RIGHT to force you to take a share capital in lieu of a cash dividend;but a company is allowed to provide an option for the shareholders to take either cash dividends or stock dividends.A stock dividend will result in an increase of both share capital and number of shares!

But anyway, if you take the bonus issue as dividends, you will still end up paying the same amount of CGT as as the person who considered it as a stock split.Since it will be a capitalized gain which will be taxed at disposal!
If Obiero did it, Who Am I?
sparkly
#59 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 4:31:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
Mart_Consult wrote:
Sparkly et al, help me out on this one kindly...

A more interesting scenario is how will they treat bonus shares issued...for instance, after Longhorn's Bonus isssue in the year just concluded, my average buying price came to 6.5...if I sold today at 10...and considering I bought the whole lot at 16...will they consider it as a Capital loss or recalculate and use 6.5 as the buying price (which is not feasible as I actually paid 16/share, the rest were at 0/share) ???

Same goes for rights issues...my average buying price goes down after most rights...so shouldn't I be claiming Cap losses on all these trades???


@ Mart Consult quite simply subtract your costs from your sale proceeds.
eg lets say you bought 1000 shares and got a bonus of 100 shares:

Sales (1100 shares @ 10) = 11,000
Less Cost of shares (1000 @ 16) = (16,000)
Less transaction fees (buy and sell)= (675)

Net Gain/(Loss) = (5,675)

Here you have made a loss of 5,675 hence no tax.
Life is short. Live passionately.
Othelo
#60 Posted : Tuesday, January 06, 2015 4:34:18 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 1/20/2014
Posts: 3,528
If your broker is Suntra investment Bank... request for holding statement you see how they have attempted to address the issue. Tutaumia kweli kweli for long term guys!!!!!!!!
Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
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