Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
The meaning of circumcision
Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/17/2010 Posts: 1,163 Location: Sudan
|
AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:I have a proposal. We circumcise every Thing in our homes. Male Cats, Male Dogs, Bulls, Male Pigs, Cocks, Everything Male. Then we move to Male Snakes. For only then will they be brighter, more responsible and considerate not only to each other, but also to the humanfolk.
And before I forget, lets circumcise our girls (and not call it FGM coz only then will they be brighter). Anybody seconding? @Um, who says that? Why would you want to circumcise a snake? What we are asking is for people to get circumcised, the benefits are more than the pain. The ladies have said so too! Unless you tell us what you're doing with that foreskin, or you are afraid, then we will understand. @AlphDoti, Why I brought all that is because Atalaku's first post assumed that people behaved badly coz they are not circumcised. You have made the wrong assumption that I am not cut, and that Im afraid. Because I've not supported your position.I am on record that given a second chance, i would bring back my foreskin. Its not being afraid of anything. All the descendants before Abraham were not circumcised, Noah, Abel, Name them. were they lesser human beings My point: A single event cannot be taken to be the source of all glory while demonising other people who do not practice it (Compare that to removing 4 teeth one at a time as practised in south Sudan) "Peace is our profession, War is our business" ...Unknown
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
|
Othelo wrote:harrydre wrote:Amores wrote:kysse wrote:Amores wrote:Jump-steady wrote:Impunity wrote:McReggae wrote:washiku wrote:McReggae wrote:Swenani wrote:Some of the posts here make me suspect that some wazuan's men are actually DICKLESS.
To imagine that some of you have kids and wives it's sickening;I only feel sorry for your wives and kids.
Grow up bastards,please please, I'm on my knees bastards....GROW THE f*** UP! Hahahaha, is that @Swenani really!  Naona hujawahi elewa @Swenani. His liking is very distinct and his hatred for tribal threads or connotations is also crystal clear. So guyz can I clearly get, people should attack Luos and we all lie low like antelopes because if you provide a rebuttal then you are tribal? Again tell me, why are perceived kikuyus in this forum who are the majority very ready to admonish @Impunity, @Mawinder for perceived tribal comments but are ok with whole threads targeting Luos and only come with their nationalistic views when a Luos stands up for his community, some guys are so predictable! As a Kenyan I asked them a simple question, just to start a thread on The Kikuyus enumerating the great things the community have achieved legally...they could not attempt coz nothing like that exist!   Clearly you seem 'overwhelmed' by these okuyos. Eat some little githeri mixed with cabbages and carrots So @impunity logs in and posts,logs out and then logs in again as @ swenani posts on the same things,some times quoting himself Uko na time kijana. one is neutral while the other is not one trashes the women folk,the other doesn't one is a joker,the other is a sadist.. one is a fighter,the other is a peacemaker one comes from the city, the other from the forest. @Kysee,do not be fooled,it is the same dude.People with so much time to waste. and he has many more like kina 'othelo' Boss leave me out of your simple minded tribal fights. Check out the last time i posted anything on Wazua............ You just had to prove that indeed you are an idiot? Smh i.am.back!!!!
|
|
|
Rank: User Joined: 1/20/2014 Posts: 3,528
|
harrydre wrote:Othelo wrote:harrydre wrote:Amores wrote:kysse wrote:Amores wrote:Jump-steady wrote:Impunity wrote:McReggae wrote:washiku wrote:McReggae wrote:Swenani wrote:Some of the posts here make me suspect that some wazuan's men are actually DICKLESS.
To imagine that some of you have kids and wives it's sickening;I only feel sorry for your wives and kids.
Grow up bastards,please please, I'm on my knees bastards....GROW THE f*** UP! Hahahaha, is that @Swenani really! Naona hujawahi elewa @Swenani. His liking is very distinct and his hatred for tribal threads or connotations is also crystal clear. So guyz can I clearly get, people should attack Luos and we all lie low like antelopes because if you provide a rebuttal then you are tribal? Again tell me, why are perceived kikuyus in this forum who are the majority very ready to admonish @Impunity, @Mawinder for perceived tribal comments but are ok with whole threads targeting Luos and only come with their nationalistic views when a Luos stands up for his community, some guys are so predictable! As a Kenyan I asked them a simple question, just to start a thread on The Kikuyus enumerating the great things the community have achieved legally...they could not attempt coz nothing like that exist! Clearly you seem 'overwhelmed' by these okuyos. Eat some little githeri mixed with cabbages and carrots So @impunity logs in and posts,logs out and then logs in again as @ swenani posts on the same things,some times quoting himself Uko na time kijana. one is neutral while the other is not one trashes the women folk,the other doesn't one is a joker,the other is a sadist.. one is a fighter,the other is a peacemaker one comes from the city, the other from the forest. @Kysee,do not be fooled,it is the same dude.People with so much time to waste. and he has many more like kina 'othelo' Boss leave me out of your simple minded tribal fights. Check out the last time i posted anything on Wazua............ You just had to prove that indeed you are an idiot? Smh You win brother...... i am the idiot! Formal education will make you a living. Self-education will make you a fortune - Jim Rohn.
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
|
AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream  Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Um Sayala wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:I have a proposal. We circumcise every Thing in our homes. Male Cats, Male Dogs, Bulls, Male Pigs, Cocks, Everything Male. Then we move to Male Snakes. For only then will they be brighter, more responsible and considerate not only to each other, but also to the humanfolk.
And before I forget, lets circumcise our girls (and not call it FGM coz only then will they be brighter). Anybody seconding? @Um, who says that? Why would you want to circumcise a snake? What we are asking is for people to get circumcised, the benefits are more than the pain. The ladies have said so too! Unless you tell us what you're doing with that foreskin, or you are afraid, then we will understand. @AlphDoti, Why I brought all that is because Atalaku's first post assumed that people behaved badly coz they are not circumcised. You have made the wrong assumption that I am not cut, and that Im afraid. Because I've not supported your position.I am on record that given a second chance, i would bring back my foreskin. Its not being afraid of anything. All the descendants before Abraham were not circumcised, Noah, Abel, Name them. were they lesser human beings My point: A single event cannot be taken to be the source of all glory while demonising other people who do not practice it (Compare that to removing 8 teeth one at a time as practised in south Sudan) @um, I'm sorry for my assumption. I understand you now. So you are saying that uncircumcised is not lesser. I agree with you here. For me, I'm not saying uncircumcised men are lesser of a men. No. I mean, they can be better if they get circumcised. It is better physically. It is healthier. It is more hygienic. It also have some psychological effect, that's why it was used a rite of passage. Also, there are benefits of circumcision. SO this is what we are pushing for.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. @Wakanyugi, I agree with you on the fact that removal of foreskin alone does not make you mature. What I had problem with is your lying about the Bible. That's all I was protesting about. Just in case somebody was misled by your statements, I want to proof to you three things: 1. Abraham was circumcised with Ismael, male family members and male slaves 2. God commanded Abraham to keep covenant everlasting (FOREVER, WHICH INCLUDES US TODAY) 3. Later Isaac was born and Abraham circumcised him when he was 8 days old. Proof: The covenant of circumcision (Chapter 17)Genesis 17:7 God Said to Abraham "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants ...for an everlasting covenant" Genesis 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "...you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations" Proof: What was the covenant?Genesis 17:13 And God said to Abraham, "both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." Proof: What happens if you don't get circumcised?Genesis 17:14 "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Proof: During this time, Ismael was already bornGenesis 17:24 - Abraham was circumcised at age of 90 together with his son Ishmael. Genesis 17:25 - Ishmael was 13 years old when both were circumcised Proof: At this point, Isaac is not yet born.Chapter 21: The later, birth of Isaac came Genesis 18:9 - And he said, ...and lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. Genesis 21:1 - And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 - Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son Genesis 21:3 - Abraham called the name of his son, Isaac. Proof: And Isaac was also circumcised tooGenesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him.
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/17/2010 Posts: 1,163 Location: Sudan
|
AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:I have a proposal. We circumcise every Thing in our homes. Male Cats, Male Dogs, Bulls, Male Pigs, Cocks, Everything Male. Then we move to Male Snakes. For only then will they be brighter, more responsible and considerate not only to each other, but also to the humanfolk.
And before I forget, lets circumcise our girls (and not call it FGM coz only then will they be brighter). Anybody seconding? @Um, who says that? Why would you want to circumcise a snake? What we are asking is for people to get circumcised, the benefits are more than the pain. The ladies have said so too! Unless you tell us what you're doing with that foreskin, or you are afraid, then we will understand. @AlphDoti, Why I brought all that is because Atalaku's first post assumed that people behaved badly coz they are not circumcised. You have made the wrong assumption that I am not cut, and that Im afraid. Because I've not supported your position.I am on record that given a second chance, i would bring back my foreskin. Its not being afraid of anything. All the descendants before Abraham were not circumcised, Noah, Abel, Name them. were they lesser human beings My point: A single event cannot be taken to be the source of all glory while demonising other people who do not practice it (Compare that to removing 8 teeth one at a time as practised in south Sudan) @um, I'm sorry for my assumption. I understand you now. So you are saying that uncircumcised is not lesser. I agree with you here. For me, I'm not saying uncircumcised men are lesser of a men. No. I mean, they can be better if they get circumcised. It is better physically. It is healthier. It is more hygienic. It also have some psychological effect, that's why it was used a rite of passage. Now, you talking about the scripture and the instruction given to prophets by God. If God didn't give Prophet 1 & 2, but later He gave an instruction to prophet 3 and says this is covenant between Him (God) and the prophet and his descendants for everlasting, then it mean "EVERLASTING". It is not our right to oppose or question. We should believe and accept and follow. @AlphaDoti, We are in sync in your ist paragraph above. On the scripture, Man has tried to read and interpret the holy books to suit their situation. For example, the Bible says that He should be Worshiped on the Seventh Day, and has given that Seventh day to be Saturday, a day between Friday and Sunday. But How many do that? God says do not Kill, Kenya is 80% christian, do you remember 2007/8 PEV. "Peace is our profession, War is our business" ...Unknown
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
|
AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. @Wakanyugi, I agree with you on the fact that removal of foreskin alone does not make you mature. What I had problem with is your lying about the Bible. That's all I was protesting about. Just in case somebody was misled by your statements, I want to proof to you three things: 1. Abraham was circumcised with Ismael, male family members and male slaves 2. God commanded Abraham to keep covenant everlasting (FOREVER, WHICH INCLUDES US TODAY) 3. Later Isaac was born and Abraham circumcised him when he was 8 days old. Proof: The covenant of circumcision (Chapter 17)Genesis 17:7 God Said to Abraham "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants ...for an everlasting covenant" Genesis 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "...you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations" Proof: What was the covenant?Genesis 17:13 And God said to Abraham, "both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." Proof: What happens if you don't get circumcised?Genesis 17:14 "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Proof: During this time, Ismael was already bornGenesis 17:24 - Abraham was circumcised at age of 90 together with his son Ishmael. Genesis 17:25 - Ishmael was 13 years old when both were circumcised Proof: At this point, Isaac is not yet born.Chapter 21: The later, birth of Isaac came Genesis 18:9 - And he said, ...and lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. Genesis 21:1 - And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 - Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son Genesis 21:3 - Abraham called the name of his son, Isaac. Proof: And Isaac was also circumcised tooGenesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. Thank you Alphdoti. I knew I could count on you to defend the 'book.' Can you now quote the new testament, the part which reinterpreted the special place of Israel viz a vis Gentiles and the behaviors that the old testament demanded they practice as a distinction. I believe this reinterpretation included diet, the requirement to circumcise male children and raised behavior, not birth, as the principle qualification for joining Gods chosen people. It might help cure some people of this obsession with a useless piece of skin. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Um Sayala wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:I have a proposal. We circumcise every Thing in our homes. Male Cats, Male Dogs, Bulls, Male Pigs, Cocks, Everything Male. Then we move to Male Snakes. For only then will they be brighter, more responsible and considerate not only to each other, but also to the humanfolk.
And before I forget, lets circumcise our girls (and not call it FGM coz only then will they be brighter). Anybody seconding? @Um, who says that? Why would you want to circumcise a snake? What we are asking is for people to get circumcised, the benefits are more than the pain. The ladies have said so too! Unless you tell us what you're doing with that foreskin, or you are afraid, then we will understand. @AlphDoti, Why I brought all that is because Atalaku's first post assumed that people behaved badly coz they are not circumcised. You have made the wrong assumption that I am not cut, and that Im afraid. Because I've not supported your position.I am on record that given a second chance, i would bring back my foreskin. Its not being afraid of anything. All the descendants before Abraham were not circumcised, Noah, Abel, Name them. were they lesser human beings My point: A single event cannot be taken to be the source of all glory while demonising other people who do not practice it (Compare that to removing 8 teeth one at a time as practised in south Sudan) @um, I'm sorry for my assumption. I understand you now. So you are saying that uncircumcised is not lesser. I agree with you here. For me, I'm not saying uncircumcised men are lesser of a men. No. I mean, they can be better if they get circumcised. It is better physically. It is healthier. It is more hygienic. It also have some psychological effect, that's why it was used a rite of passage. Now, you talking about the scripture and the instruction given to prophets by God. If God didn't give Prophet 1 & 2, but later He gave an instruction to prophet 3 and says this is covenant between Him (God) and the prophet and his descendants for everlasting, then it mean "EVERLASTING". It is not our right to oppose or question. We should believe and accept and follow. @AlphaDoti, We are in sync in your ist paragraph above. On the scripture, Man has tried to read and interpret the holy books to suit their situation. For example, the Bible says that He should be Worshiped on the Seventh Day, and has given that Seventh day to be Saturday, a day between Friday and Sunday. But How many do that? God says do not Kill, Kenya is 80% christian, do you remember 2007/8 PEV. @Um, killing is criminal offense. God has commanded people not to kill. But people choose to obey or disobey. God also gave command for Sabbath day to be set aside. People disobeyed and violated the command. God later disbanded Sabbath ( I'm sure you didn't know this!!! And you know I don't lie. You know that I know the Bible). SO there is no more Sabbath.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. @Wakanyugi, I agree with you on the fact that removal of foreskin alone does not make you mature. What I had problem with is your lying about the Bible. That's all I was protesting about. Just in case somebody was misled by your statements, I want to proof to you three things: 1. Abraham was circumcised with Ismael, male family members and male slaves 2. God commanded Abraham to keep covenant everlasting (FOREVER, WHICH INCLUDES US TODAY) 3. Later Isaac was born and Abraham circumcised him when he was 8 days old. Proof: The covenant of circumcision (Chapter 17)Genesis 17:7 God Said to Abraham "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants ...for an everlasting covenant" Genesis 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "...you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations" Proof: What was the covenant?Genesis 17:13 And God said to Abraham, "both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." Proof: What happens if you don't get circumcised?Genesis 17:14 "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Proof: During this time, Ismael was already bornGenesis 17:24 - Abraham was circumcised at age of 90 together with his son Ishmael. Genesis 17:25 - Ishmael was 13 years old when both were circumcised Proof: At this point, Isaac is not yet born.Chapter 21: The later, birth of Isaac came Genesis 18:9 - And he said, ...and lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. Genesis 21:1 - And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 - Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son Genesis 21:3 - Abraham called the name of his son, Isaac. Proof: And Isaac was also circumcised tooGenesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. Thank you Alphdoti. I knew I could count on you to defend the 'book.' Can you now quote the new testament, the part which reinterpreted the special place of Israel viz a vis Gentiles and the behaviors that the old testament demanded they practice as a distinction. I believe this reinterpretation included diet, the requirement to circumcise male children and raised behavior, not birth, as the principle qualification for joining Gods chosen people. It might help cure some people of this obsession with a useless piece of skin. @Wakanyugi, read the below very carefully. The "God of Christians" (God forbids) Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was circumcised on the 8th day (Luke 2:21). The same "God Christians" (God forbids), Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) stated very, very clearly in Matthew 5:17-20 that: " Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." So has heaven and the earth disappeared? Of course, not yet! So why have the Christians disobeyed the law of God? It is Paul who came and said " I'm not preaching the Gospel of my lord Jesus. But I'm preaching my own gospel, the gospel for the Gentiles.". Paul came and said his Gospel is for the "uncircumcised" Paul said in Hebrews 7:18-19, 8:13 that the law was obsolete and weak!!!!! Contrary to what Jesus himself said!!! Contrary to what the law itself says in Psalm 19:7 which says that the Law is perfect. An author Roshen Enam says:" Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, "to win a larger number" of followers; the followers of a new religion "the Pauline Christianity". (from the book Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p.69)
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
|
AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. @Wakanyugi, I agree with you on the fact that removal of foreskin alone does not make you mature. What I had problem with is your lying about the Bible. That's all I was protesting about. Just in case somebody was misled by your statements, I want to proof to you three things: 1. Abraham was circumcised with Ismael, male family members and male slaves 2. God commanded Abraham to keep covenant everlasting (FOREVER, WHICH INCLUDES US TODAY) 3. Later Isaac was born and Abraham circumcised him when he was 8 days old. Proof: The covenant of circumcision (Chapter 17)Genesis 17:7 God Said to Abraham "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants ...for an everlasting covenant" Genesis 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "...you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations" Proof: What was the covenant?Genesis 17:13 And God said to Abraham, "both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." Proof: What happens if you don't get circumcised?Genesis 17:14 "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Proof: During this time, Ismael was already bornGenesis 17:24 - Abraham was circumcised at age of 90 together with his son Ishmael. Genesis 17:25 - Ishmael was 13 years old when both were circumcised Proof: At this point, Isaac is not yet born.Chapter 21: The later, birth of Isaac came Genesis 18:9 - And he said, ...and lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. Genesis 21:1 - And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 - Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son Genesis 21:3 - Abraham called the name of his son, Isaac. Proof: And Isaac was also circumcised tooGenesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. Thank you Alphdoti. I knew I could count on you to defend the 'book.' Can you now quote the new testament, the part which reinterpreted the special place of Israel viz a vis Gentiles and the behaviors that the old testament demanded they practice as a distinction. I believe this reinterpretation included diet, the requirement to circumcise male children and raised behavior, not birth, as the principle qualification for joining Gods chosen people. It might help cure some people of this obsession with a useless piece of skin. @Wakanyugi, read the below very carefully. The "God of Christians" (God forbids) Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was circumcised on the 8th day (Luke 2:21). The same "God Christians" (God forbids), Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) stated very, very clearly in Matthew 5:17-20 that: " Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." So has heaven and the earth disappeared? Of course, not yet! So why have the Christians disobeyed the law of God? It is Paul who came and said " I'm not preaching the Gospel of my lord Jesus. But I'm preaching my own gospel, the gospel for the Gentiles.". Paul came and said his Gospel is for the "uncircumcised" Paul said in Hebrews 7:18-19, 8:13 that the law was obsolete and weak!!!!! Contrary to what Jesus himself said!!! Contrary to what the law itself says in Psalm 19:7 which says that the Law is perfect. An author Roshen Enam says:" Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, "to win a larger number" of followers; the followers of a new religion "the Pauline Christianity". (from the book Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p.69) Thank you very much, very impressive. Are you a Professor of religion or do you moonlight as a preacher as well? Anyway, as mentioned, I have little competence in this area and, being neither a Christian nor a Muslim, I prefer to keep a neutral stance. So you will forgive me for not commenting. Have a good weekend. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/7/2010 Posts: 1,063 Location: Kenya
|
Mtu Biz wrote:
So @magigi
Share your thoughts about the discussion you have sponsored.
...I am not @Magigi. Bro i don't need to repeat myself ... There a very big correlation between circumcision and brains... A man who is not circumcised remains a child throughout his life...His thoughts are childish, his actions childish...everything childish... ...How can you explain an adult man deflating the tires of a vehicle after molesting the owner for no apparent reason? Was the man on the wrong? Yes He could have been a mole! Was there a civilized way of dealing with him? Yes there was. Was it followed? NO!
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
|
Impunity wrote:Atalaku wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. ...@wakayungi...it was just a simple question. ..how old was Abraham when he was circumcised? As simple as that! The reason you are thinking the way you do is because besides carrying your foreskin your brain is also not circumcised...you think like a child...ni hayo tu... Very depressing words to come from a pedophile whose dick-head was accidentally chopped during a botched circumcision process!!!!!!! Just ignore the fellow. They might have chopped the wrong head you know. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
|
Wakanyugi wrote:Impunity wrote:Atalaku wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. ...@wakayungi...it was just a simple question. ..how old was Abraham when he was circumcised? As simple as that! The reason you are thinking the way you do is because besides carrying your foreskin your brain is also not circumcised...you think like a child...ni hayo tu... Very depressing words to come from a pedophile whose dick-head was accidentally chopped during a botched circumcision process!!!!!!! Just ignore the fellow. They might have chopped the wrong head you know. ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. @Wakanyugi, I agree with you on the fact that removal of foreskin alone does not make you mature. What I had problem with is your lying about the Bible. That's all I was protesting about. Just in case somebody was misled by your statements, I want to proof to you three things: 1. Abraham was circumcised with Ismael, male family members and male slaves 2. God commanded Abraham to keep covenant everlasting (FOREVER, WHICH INCLUDES US TODAY) 3. Later Isaac was born and Abraham circumcised him when he was 8 days old. Proof: The covenant of circumcision (Chapter 17)Genesis 17:7 God Said to Abraham "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants ...for an everlasting covenant" Genesis 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "...you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations" Proof: What was the covenant?Genesis 17:13 And God said to Abraham, "both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." Proof: What happens if you don't get circumcised?Genesis 17:14 "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Proof: During this time, Ismael was already bornGenesis 17:24 - Abraham was circumcised at age of 90 together with his son Ishmael. Genesis 17:25 - Ishmael was 13 years old when both were circumcised Proof: At this point, Isaac is not yet born.Chapter 21: The later, birth of Isaac came Genesis 18:9 - And he said, ...and lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. Genesis 21:1 - And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 - Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son Genesis 21:3 - Abraham called the name of his son, Isaac. Proof: And Isaac was also circumcised tooGenesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. Thank you Alphdoti. I knew I could count on you to defend the 'book.' Can you now quote the new testament, the part which reinterpreted the special place of Israel viz a vis Gentiles and the behaviors that the old testament demanded they practice as a distinction. I believe this reinterpretation included diet, the requirement to circumcise male children and raised behavior, not birth, as the principle qualification for joining Gods chosen people. It might help cure some people of this obsession with a useless piece of skin. @Wakanyugi, read the below very carefully. The "God of Christians" (God forbids) Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was circumcised on the 8th day (Luke 2:21). The same "God Christians" (God forbids), Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) stated very, very clearly in Matthew 5:17-20 that: " Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." So has heaven and the earth disappeared? Of course, not yet! So why have the Christians disobeyed the law of God? It is Paul who came and said " I'm not preaching the Gospel of my lord Jesus. But I'm preaching my own gospel, the gospel for the Gentiles.". Paul came and said his Gospel is for the "uncircumcised" Paul said in Hebrews 7:18-19, 8:13 that the law was obsolete and weak!!!!! Contrary to what Jesus himself said!!! Contrary to what the law itself says in Psalm 19:7 which says that the Law is perfect. An author Roshen Enam says:" Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, "to win a larger number" of followers; the followers of a new religion "the Pauline Christianity". (from the book Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p.69) Thank you very much, very impressive. Are you a Professor of religion or do you moonlight as a preacher as well? Anyway, as mentioned, I have little competence in this area and, being neither a Christian nor a Muslim, I prefer to keep a neutral stance. So you will forgive me for not commenting. Have a good weekend. I used to do a lot when I was young. I lectured. I consultant. I went into farming. Nowadays I have lots of time. If I'm not in Masjid, then I'm hustling in the farm, or I'm on the road checking one or two things, or visiting the kids, or visiting other Muslim brothers across the counties... Or just sitting and reading a book or Bible (I have both 1952 and 1971 versions) or Quran or hadith and eating porridge like below real cup, I just took. 
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/17/2010 Posts: 1,163 Location: Sudan
|
AlphDoti wrote:Um Sayala wrote:[quote=AlphDoti][quote=Um Sayala][quote=AlphDoti]
@AlphaDoti,
We are in sync in your ist paragraph above.
On the scripture, Man has tried to read and interpret the holy books to suit their situation. For example, the Bible says that He should be Worshiped on the Seventh Day, and has given that Seventh day to be Saturday, a day between Friday and Sunday. But How many do that?
God says do not Kill, Kenya is 80% christian, do you remember 2007/8 PEV. @Um, killing is criminal offense. God has commanded people not to kill. But people choose to obey or disobey. God also gave command for Sabbath day to be set aside. People disobeyed and violated the command. God later disbanded Sabbath (I'm sure you didn't know this!!! And you know I don't lie. You know that I know the Bible). SO there is no more Sabbath. Ive Never read anywhere that God behaved like a seasaw, disbanding His commandment.No. So of the 10 commandments, which one again Did He Disband? Exodus 20:2ff 1. Thou shall not have no other gods before me 2. Thou shall no worship Idols 3. thou shall not swear falsely with My name 4. Remember the Sabbath day and Keep it Holy 5. Honour your father and mother 6. Thou shall not Kill 7. Thou shall not commit adultery 8. Thou shall not steal 9. Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbour 10. Thou shall not Covet(wife, property,...) "Peace is our profession, War is our business" ...Unknown
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
|
AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Atalaku wrote:I have just finished revising CRE with my son and one thing I learnt is that Abraham was circumcised when he was 99 years old. Bothers, It is never late!!!Take a step of faith and do what needs to be done! If this is the message you got from reading that verse then I fear for your little boy. Abraham was circumcised as an old man, long after he had become the chosen one of God, moved to the promised land, become a succesful leader of men, sired and raised Issac and Ishmael, the ancestors of two great peoples and the most influential religions known today. In short long after his work was already done. Circumcision was a non event. @Wakanyugi your lack of Bible knowledge is wanting! WHere did you get all that, guess work or what? Or you woke up from a dream Here you go: "On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him. 24 Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised, 25 and his son Ishmael was thirteen; 26 Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that very day. 27 And every male in Abraham’s household, including those born in his household or bought from a foreigner, was circumcised with him."Note, by this time God had had already chosen Abraham and promised to make him the father of a great race. On God's instructions, he had left Ur, for Canaan through Haran. He was the leader of a big band and owned a lot of wealth. My point: Circumcision was therefore not a requirement to become the chosen one. It was a simply a mark of covenant - similar to signing a written contract as a sign that you and I have entered into a business relationship. OK, I admit Isaac was not born when his father was Circumcised... but I think my point is made. @Wakanyugi, thank you for admitting that you had lied at first that " Abraham was circumcised long after he had ...sired and raised Issac and Ishmael". That one is closed. So now tell us what God said about the covenant. Was it " everlasting" or not. And if everlasting, when did it stop and who stopped? I try to avoid interpreting religion (it is a losing game) so I'll take your implied answer that the covenant was meant to be everlasting. But I do hold that carrying out ones side of an agreement is more important than citing the paper it is written on. The likes of Magigi and his fellow foreskin chauvinists, seem to think the paper (foreskin or lack thereof) is more important than the covenant. BTW I come from a tribe that holds circumcision very highly. But the most important words I recall was a warning from my Grandfather, on the day I went for the cut, "...remember there are many people who are circumcised in body but in mind remain a 'kĩhĩĩ' (immature boy)." In other words it is behavior, not a mere operation, that counts. He was not wrong. Now I need to go rinse my mouth. @Wakanyugi, I agree with you on the fact that removal of foreskin alone does not make you mature. What I had problem with is your lying about the Bible. That's all I was protesting about. Just in case somebody was misled by your statements, I want to proof to you three things: 1. Abraham was circumcised with Ismael, male family members and male slaves 2. God commanded Abraham to keep covenant everlasting (FOREVER, WHICH INCLUDES US TODAY) 3. Later Isaac was born and Abraham circumcised him when he was 8 days old. Proof: The covenant of circumcision (Chapter 17)Genesis 17:7 God Said to Abraham "And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants ...for an everlasting covenant" Genesis 17:9 And God said to Abraham, "...you shall keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations" Proof: What was the covenant?Genesis 17:13 And God said to Abraham, "both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant." Proof: What happens if you don't get circumcised?Genesis 17:14 "Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Proof: During this time, Ismael was already bornGenesis 17:24 - Abraham was circumcised at age of 90 together with his son Ishmael. Genesis 17:25 - Ishmael was 13 years old when both were circumcised Proof: At this point, Isaac is not yet born.Chapter 21: The later, birth of Isaac came Genesis 18:9 - And he said, ...and lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. Genesis 21:1 - And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken. Genesis 21:2 - Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son Genesis 21:3 - Abraham called the name of his son, Isaac. Proof: And Isaac was also circumcised tooGenesis 21:4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. Thank you Alphdoti. I knew I could count on you to defend the 'book.' Can you now quote the new testament, the part which reinterpreted the special place of Israel viz a vis Gentiles and the behaviors that the old testament demanded they practice as a distinction. I believe this reinterpretation included diet, the requirement to circumcise male children and raised behavior, not birth, as the principle qualification for joining Gods chosen people. It might help cure some people of this obsession with a useless piece of skin. @Wakanyugi, read the below very carefully. The "God of Christians" (God forbids) Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was circumcised on the 8th day (Luke 2:21). The same "God Christians" (God forbids), Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) stated very, very clearly in Matthew 5:17-20 that: " Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." So has heaven and the earth disappeared? Of course, not yet! So why have the Christians disobeyed the law of God? It is Paul who came and said " I'm not preaching the Gospel of my lord Jesus. But I'm preaching my own gospel, the gospel for the Gentiles.". Paul came and said his Gospel is for the "uncircumcised" Paul said in Hebrews 7:18-19, 8:13 that the law was obsolete and weak!!!!! Contrary to what Jesus himself said!!! Contrary to what the law itself says in Psalm 19:7 which says that the Law is perfect. An author Roshen Enam says:" Paul abolished the Law, which was followed and preached by Jesus (pbuh), and corrupted the whole religion, giving it a new form. The main ambition behind all this was, in his own words, "to win a larger number" of followers; the followers of a new religion "the Pauline Christianity". (from the book Follow Jesus or Follow Paul p.69) Thank you very much, very impressive. Are you a Professor of religion or do you moonlight as a preacher as well? Anyway, as mentioned, I have little competence in this area and, being neither a Christian nor a Muslim, I prefer to keep a neutral stance. So you will forgive me for not commenting. Have a good weekend. I used to do a lot when I was young. I lectured. I consultant. I went into farming. Nowadays I have lots of time. If I'm not in Masjid, then I'm hustling in the farm, or I'm on the road checking one or two things, or visiting the kids, or visiting other Muslim brothers across the counties... Or just sitting and reading a book or Bible (I have both 1952 and 1971 versions) or Quran or hadith and eating porridge like below real cup, I just took. I own a Koran too. A stolen copy, from a hotel in Uganda. (In mitigation I left them one of my favorite novels in return). I plan to read it from cover to cover (as I did the Bible once). It may help me to understand what all the hullabaloo re: Judeo-Christianity-Islam is about. After all they are just three siblings, just not getting along, as usual. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
|
Why would Paul outlaw circumcision and then tell people to worship a man who was circumcised? I mean..... irony nayo! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/7/2010 Posts: 1,063 Location: Kenya
|
Wakanyugi wrote:[quote
I own a Koran too. A stolen copy, from a hotel in Uganda. (In mitigation I left them one of my favorite novels in return). I plan to read it from cover to cover (as I did the Bible once). It may help me to understand what all the hullabaloo re: Judeo-Christianity-Islam is about. After all they are just three siblings, just not getting along, as usual.
Hear hear hear. ..a fully grown up man steals Holy Koran from a hotel. And when I am telling you that an uncut man cant think you dispute. How can a man steal a Koran? When I needed a Koran I walked to a mosque in south c and asked the cleric for one. He gladly handed me one together with other materials to help me in understanding it. Now a kihii cant think like that. These uncut men will alwsys be destructive and for no reason at all. While walking from Imperial hotel in kampala through speke hotel, sheraton, mimosa courts, serena hotel to Garden City I counted about 3 mosques. You could have walked into one of those and asked for a Koran. If only you were circumcised you would have thought twice before steslkng. But the foreskin prevents you from thinking. You are still a child..doing childish things... ...you are the type who one would find all sorts of hotel towels in your house together with sleepers ( even those that dont look alike). Mwizi sugu...
|
|
|
Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2013 Posts: 1,977 Location: Here
|
guru267 wrote:Why would Paul outlaw circumcision and then tell people to worship a man who was circumcised?
I mean..... irony nayo! so @guru is back. Everybody STEALS, a THIEF is one who's CAUGHT stealing something of LITTLE VALUE. !!!
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Life
»
The meaning of circumcision
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|