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could it be all in the mind?
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible? Yes of course. There is understanding based on faith, is there not? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=vky]can the mind be primed to heal the body without external intervention? http://mobile.nytimes.co...&_r=0&referrer=[/quote] I think we might be losing the really big implications of this article. Let me stretch things a bit here: 1. The mind is the most important actor in healing, aging, performance etc. That is why in some cases placebos are seen to work better than the real item. They incite the mind to get working. 2. All medicine is a placebo. It is not the drugs that heal but the mind. The entire medical industry is therefore based on a lie. 3. The only value we get from drugs, diet, exercise etc, is because these serve as reinforcers (crutches) for the mind. Once you swallow that concoction you expect to get better and so you do. 4. Jesus was right 'your faith has healed you' Have a mindful weekend, won't you? i concur with your sentiments save for point 4, i believe that the human mind is the ultimate tool in achieving wellness and health but the human mind today is laden with mental fear and scarcity such that our minds operate along the lines of what we have been told we can or cannot do. we need to rid ourselves of this fearful and scarce mentality that plagues humanity then we shall realize the power of the mind over our bodies. 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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vky wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=vky]can the mind be primed to heal the body without external intervention? http://mobile.nytimes.co...&_r=0&referrer=[/quote] I think we might be losing the really big implications of this article. Let me stretch things a bit here: 1. The mind is the most important actor in healing, aging, performance etc. That is why in some cases placebos are seen to work better than the real item. They incite the mind to get working. 2. All medicine is a placebo. It is not the drugs that heal but the mind. The entire medical industry is therefore based on a lie. 3. The only value we get from drugs, diet, exercise etc, is because these serve as reinforcers (crutches) for the mind. Once you swallow that concoction you expect to get better and so you do. 4. Jesus was right 'your faith has healed you' Have a mindful weekend, won't you? i concur with your sentiments save for point 4, i believe that the human mind is the ultimate tool in achieving wellness and health but the human mind today is laden with mental fear and scarcity such that our minds operate along the lines of what we have been told we can or cannot do. we need to rid ourselves of this fearful and scarce mentality that plagues humanity then we shall realize the power of the mind over our bodies. You are right. The state of the human mind today is like a powerful Ferrari engine running on dirty water. That is all the fear and negativity we cram into it. Despite all that, it still does a great job. As for number 4....you have a problem with JC? "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible? Yes of course. There is understanding based on faith, is there not? Yes, absolutely there is. There crumbles the atheists' bulwark. Hence Vky's skepticism of point #4 is nothing but fear. There can be knowledge, understanding with and by faith. The details of that is another story. Faith hence cannot be the dirty water in the Ferrari engine of the human mind. What could it be? What is this maliciously holding back the human mind?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/3/2008 Posts: 4,057 Location: Gwitu
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Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible? Yes of course. There is understanding based on faith, is there not? Yes, absolutely there is. There crumbles the atheists' bulwark. Hence Vky's skepticism of point #4 is nothing but fear. There can be knowledge, understanding with and by faith. The details of that is another story. Faith hence cannot be the dirty water in the Ferrari engine of the human mind. What could it be? What is this maliciously holding back the human mind? You guys are either geniuses or you are nuts. Truth forever on the scaffold
Wrong forever on the throne
(James Russell Rowell)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/7/2012 Posts: 11,908
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kaka2za wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible? Yes of course. There is understanding based on faith, is there not? Yes, absolutely there is. There crumbles the atheists' bulwark. Hence Vky's skepticism of point #4 is nothing but fear. There can be knowledge, understanding with and by faith. The details of that is another story. Faith hence cannot be the dirty water in the Ferrari engine of the human mind. What could it be? What is this maliciously holding back the human mind? You guys are either geniuses or you are nuts. @limanika  In the business world, everyone is paid in two coins - cash and experience. Take the experience first; the cash will come later - H Geneen
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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vky wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=vky]can the mind be primed to heal the body without external intervention? http://mobile.nytimes.co...&_r=0&referrer=[/quote] I think we might be losing the really big implications of this article. Let me stretch things a bit here: 1. The mind is the most important actor in healing, aging, performance etc. That is why in some cases placebos are seen to work better than the real item. They incite the mind to get working. 2. All medicine is a placebo. It is not the drugs that heal but the mind. The entire medical industry is therefore based on a lie. 3. The only value we get from drugs, diet, exercise etc, is because these serve as reinforcers (crutches) for the mind. Once you swallow that concoction you expect to get better and so you do. 4. Jesus was right 'your faith has healed you' Have a mindful weekend, won't you? i concur with your sentiments save for point 4, i believe that the human mind is the ultimate tool in achieving wellness and health but the human mind today is laden with mental fear and scarcity such that our minds operate along the lines of what we have been told we can or cannot do. we need to rid ourselves of this fearful and scarce mentality that plagues humanity then we shall realize the power of the mind over our bodies. @vky, what you're saying is the crux of Christ's message to humans. The mind you've described is the mind of the fallen Man. And it's remedy, is to be born again. To clean the mind, and to look at a new reality. Heaven. The place of super abundance and perfect love, knowledge and understanding. Maybe the word that put you off is 'faith', but knowledge is impossible without faith. Because knowing entails working out. How then can the ignorant get to work and find light? They must have faith, hope and love. Faith heals because it works the sick, out. It facilitates healing from deep within. It's medicine to the fear you've just described.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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kaka2za wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible? Yes of course. There is understanding based on faith, is there not? Yes, absolutely there is. There crumbles the atheists' bulwark. Hence Vky's skepticism of point #4 is nothing but fear. There can be knowledge, understanding with and by faith. The details of that is another story. Faith hence cannot be the dirty water in the Ferrari engine of the human mind. What could it be? What is this maliciously holding back the human mind? You guys are either geniuses or you are nuts. They could also be both or 'none of the above'.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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tycho wrote:vky wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=vky]can the mind be primed to heal the body without external intervention? http://mobile.nytimes.co...&_r=0&referrer=[/quote] I think we might be losing the really big implications of this article. Let me stretch things a bit here: 1. The mind is the most important actor in healing, aging, performance etc. That is why in some cases placebos are seen to work better than the real item. They incite the mind to get working. 2. All medicine is a placebo. It is not the drugs that heal but the mind. The entire medical industry is therefore based on a lie. 3. The only value we get from drugs, diet, exercise etc, is because these serve as reinforcers (crutches) for the mind. Once you swallow that concoction you expect to get better and so you do. 4. Jesus was right 'your faith has healed you' Have a mindful weekend, won't you? i concur with your sentiments save for point 4, i believe that the human mind is the ultimate tool in achieving wellness and health but the human mind today is laden with mental fear and scarcity such that our minds operate along the lines of what we have been told we can or cannot do. we need to rid ourselves of this fearful and scarce mentality that plagues humanity then we shall realize the power of the mind over our bodies. @vky, what you're saying is the crux of Christ's message to humans. The mind you've described is the mind of the fallen Man. And it's remedy, is to be born again. To clean the mind, and to look at a new reality. Heaven. The place of super abundance and perfect love, knowledge and understanding. Maybe the word that put you off is 'faith', but knowledge is impossible without faith. Because knowing entails working out. How then can the ignorant get to work and find light? They must have faith, hope and love. Faith heals because it works the sick, out. It facilitates healing from deep within. It's medicine to the fear you've just described. that is one way to look at it which would appeal to the religious mind and i have no problems with that as human beings will believe what they want to, however, i on the other hand am not religious and have very little regard for divinely posited codes on how one should conduct his/her life. i do agree with you that humanity needs to look at a new reality, indeed this was the subject of a convo i had with a friend who was looking to clean wipe his mind with the aid of cannabis, deep meditation and self sequestration so as to achieve a different outlook on reality ... whether he achieves it or not one thing is for sure our current reality is just bad for our body and mind in my world faith knowledge is no knowledge, its a state of mind, knowledge can exist devoid of faith and the seeker's state of mind will determine the knowledge 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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vky wrote:tycho wrote:vky wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=vky]can the mind be primed to heal the body without external intervention? http://mobile.nytimes.co...&_r=0&referrer=[/quote] I think we might be losing the really big implications of this article. Let me stretch things a bit here: 1. The mind is the most important actor in healing, aging, performance etc. That is why in some cases placebos are seen to work better than the real item. They incite the mind to get working. 2. All medicine is a placebo. It is not the drugs that heal but the mind. The entire medical industry is therefore based on a lie. 3. The only value we get from drugs, diet, exercise etc, is because these serve as reinforcers (crutches) for the mind. Once you swallow that concoction you expect to get better and so you do. 4. Jesus was right 'your faith has healed you' Have a mindful weekend, won't you? i concur with your sentiments save for point 4, i believe that the human mind is the ultimate tool in achieving wellness and health but the human mind today is laden with mental fear and scarcity such that our minds operate along the lines of what we have been told we can or cannot do. we need to rid ourselves of this fearful and scarce mentality that plagues humanity then we shall realize the power of the mind over our bodies. @vky, what you're saying is the crux of Christ's message to humans. The mind you've described is the mind of the fallen Man. And it's remedy, is to be born again. To clean the mind, and to look at a new reality. Heaven. The place of super abundance and perfect love, knowledge and understanding. Maybe the word that put you off is 'faith', but knowledge is impossible without faith. Because knowing entails working out. How then can the ignorant get to work and find light? They must have faith, hope and love. Faith heals because it works the sick, out. It facilitates healing from deep within. It's medicine to the fear you've just described. that is one way to look at it which would appeal to the religious mind and i have no problems with that as human beings will believe what they want to, however, i on the other hand am not religious and have very little regard for divinely posited codes on how one should conduct his/her life. i do agree with you that humanity needs to look at a new reality, indeed this was the subject of a convo i had with a friend who was looking to clean wipe his mind with the aid of cannabis, deep meditation and self sequestration so as to achieve a different outlook on reality ... whether he achieves it or not one thing is for sure our current reality is just bad for our body and mind in my world faith knowledge is no knowledge, its a state of mind, knowledge can exist devoid of faith and the seeker's state of mind will determine the knowledge I understand some of what you're saying. And I am greatly instructed. In fact, I can identify with your position. However there's so much that needs to be clarified and understood. First, your sentiments agree with religious outlook but you differ in the forms of expression and symbology. Even the preferred metaphor is different. But the essential desire is the same. 'Divine law' is easy to misunderstand. Especially if one hasn't participated fully and willingly to it. Again, there's ignorance and misinformation on the technique of mind cleaning. At Google staff are inviting Buddhist masters to train them 'mindfulness'. But what's mindfulness without understanding? There's nothing like 'deep' or 'shallow' meditation. 'Faith' isn't 'knowledge', and all knowledge is a state of mind. Everything is a state of mind.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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tycho wrote:vky wrote:tycho wrote:vky wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:[quote=vky]can the mind be primed to heal the body without external intervention? http://mobile.nytimes.co...&_r=0&referrer=[/quote] I think we might be losing the really big implications of this article. Let me stretch things a bit here: 1. The mind is the most important actor in healing, aging, performance etc. That is why in some cases placebos are seen to work better than the real item. They incite the mind to get working. 2. All medicine is a placebo. It is not the drugs that heal but the mind. The entire medical industry is therefore based on a lie. 3. The only value we get from drugs, diet, exercise etc, is because these serve as reinforcers (crutches) for the mind. Once you swallow that concoction you expect to get better and so you do. 4. Jesus was right 'your faith has healed you' Have a mindful weekend, won't you? i concur with your sentiments save for point 4, i believe that the human mind is the ultimate tool in achieving wellness and health but the human mind today is laden with mental fear and scarcity such that our minds operate along the lines of what we have been told we can or cannot do. we need to rid ourselves of this fearful and scarce mentality that plagues humanity then we shall realize the power of the mind over our bodies. @vky, what you're saying is the crux of Christ's message to humans. The mind you've described is the mind of the fallen Man. And it's remedy, is to be born again. To clean the mind, and to look at a new reality. Heaven. The place of super abundance and perfect love, knowledge and understanding. Maybe the word that put you off is 'faith', but knowledge is impossible without faith. Because knowing entails working out. How then can the ignorant get to work and find light? They must have faith, hope and love. Faith heals because it works the sick, out. It facilitates healing from deep within. It's medicine to the fear you've just described. that is one way to look at it which would appeal to the religious mind and i have no problems with that as human beings will believe what they want to, however, i on the other hand am not religious and have very little regard for divinely posited codes on how one should conduct his/her life. i do agree with you that humanity needs to look at a new reality, indeed this was the subject of a convo i had with a friend who was looking to clean wipe his mind with the aid of cannabis, deep meditation and self sequestration so as to achieve a different outlook on reality ... whether he achieves it or not one thing is for sure our current reality is just bad for our body and mind in my world faith knowledge is no knowledge, its a state of mind, knowledge can exist devoid of faith and the seeker's state of mind will determine the knowledge I understand some of what you're saying. And I am greatly instructed. In fact, I can identify with your position. However there's so much that needs to be clarified and understood. First, your sentiments agree with religious outlook but you differ in the forms of expression and symbology. Even the preferred metaphor is different. But the essential desire is the same. 'Divine law' is easy to misunderstand. Especially if one hasn't participated fully and willingly to it. Again, there's ignorance and misinformation on the technique of mind cleaning. At Google staff are inviting Buddhist masters to train them 'mindfulness'. But what's mindfulness without understanding? There's nothing like 'deep' or 'shallow' meditation. 'Faith' isn't 'knowledge', and all knowledge is a state of mind. Everything is a state of mind. on religion i am not religious, there are no gods, demons and holy books in my world having said that i appreciate the role of religion in society ie a hopeless drunk or thief changing his/her ways because he/she saw the light, my appreciation of religion and my personal views on it are worlds apart. on mind cleaning you cant claim misinformation or ignorance because its a jungle out there and people are doing preposterous stuff to try and change the way they view reality take for instance a guy i know who took to watching baby videos and eating baby food and even dressing like a baby for three months all in a bid to become a baby again, so on this one its different strokes for different folk there is no gold standard to refer to. on faith and knowledge, religious people know God exists because they have faith in his existence if you take away the faith then the knowledge of God's existence crumbles this is what i refer to as faith knowledge which in my view is no knowledge 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@vky, let me start this post by recalling what I once learned from C.S. Lewis, a long time ago when I was starting the journey to change and clean 'my mind'. 'One doesn't have to win an argument to change a person's mind'. So I don't hope to trigger all your defenses today or even antagonize you. I'm simply stating what I have come to know and understand from the experience of my own mind change and healing.
'Gods', 'holy books', 'demons', these are symbols, and symbols aren't the things they represent. To shun symbols is to put ones self in an impossible position. For example, if there are no symbols then there can't be communication. In this case, we know that the human mind works beyond logic or even rationality. The more we dig into the rational and logical the more we get into what I may call 'super rational' and 'super logical'. And in these zones we can't escape symbols if at all we are to master our minds.
Otherwise it will be 'a jungle out there' as you seem to see it. In the jungle, you imply, everyone will try to beat his own path. But that's a sociological impossibility. Humans are social creatures who have to share meaning in order to exist. And for how long have humans been in existence? It can't be that it's a jungle out there. There's an accurate system of knowledge from psychiatry to mythology that can serve as a guide to mental maturity. And I have experienced both. There's a gold standard to subscribe to.
Humans don't know that God exist beause they have faith in his existence. People know that God exists from their experience and in the course of developing experience. Because symbols are created from experience. The other day I was reading of some new words being introduced to the English dictionary. It's the same process with 'God' or any other symbol that will replace 'him'.
In any case, I can say that your understanding of religion and faith is pretty superficial. You've been taken in by the most banal meanings that seem to be traded around. That's why you think it's all a jungle. In simple terms, you have been mis-educated. Why? Because education is about 'clearing the jungle' for humans. Think about this, you can't deny what you don't fear. If your mind is fearless then it can embrace everything because it has power. So your mind too has fear. It couldn't guide your friend or yourself because it has ignorance. So how can you be so confident of it?
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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tycho wrote:@vky, let me start this post by recalling what I once learned from C.S. Lewis, a long time ago when I was starting the journey to change and clean 'my mind'. 'One doesn't have to win an argument to change a person's mind'. So I don't hope to trigger all your defenses today or even antagonize you. I'm simply stating what I have come to know and understand from the experience of my own mind change and healing.
'Gods', 'holy books', 'demons', these are symbols, and symbols aren't the things they represent. To shun symbols is to put ones self in an impossible position. For example, if there are no symbols then there can't be communication. In this case, we know that the human mind works beyond logic or even rationality. The more we dig into the rational and logical the more we get into what I may call 'super rational' and 'super logical'. And in these zones we can't escape symbols if at all we are to master our minds.
Otherwise it will be 'a jungle out there' as you seem to see it. In the jungle, you imply, everyone will try to beat his own path. But that's a sociological impossibility. Humans are social creatures who have to share meaning in order to exist. And for how long have humans been in existence? It can't be that it's a jungle out there. There's an accurate system of knowledge from psychiatry to mythology that can serve as a guide to mental maturity. And I have experienced both. There's a gold standard to subscribe to.
Humans don't know that God exist beause they have faith in his existence. People know that God exists from their experience and in the course of developing experience. Because symbols are created from experience. The other day I was reading of some new words being introduced to the English dictionary. It's the same process with 'God' or any other symbol that will replace 'him'.
In any case, I can say that your understanding of religion and faith is pretty superficial. You've been taken in by the most banal meanings that seem to be traded around. That's why you think it's all a jungle. In simple terms, you have been mis-educated. Why? Because education is about 'clearing the jungle' for humans. Think about this, you can't deny what you don't fear. If your mind is fearless then it can embrace everything because it has power. So your mind too has fear. It couldn't guide your friend or yourself because it has ignorance. So how can you be so confident of it? i will end this by saying that you indeed learnt right on winning arguments and changing minds, in my case i am not after changing minds people are who they are. your paragraphs 2 - 3 are argumentative, arguments of which i do not wish to indulge. your attempts to analyze and extrapolate my understanding of religion based on what i have posted are way off the mark, i posted a superficial post and you came to a superficial conclusion. on the last three lines of your post, you need to calm your mind some people are not easily figured out as you want to put it. 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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vky wrote:tycho wrote:@vky, let me start this post by recalling what I once learned from C.S. Lewis, a long time ago when I was starting the journey to change and clean 'my mind'. 'One doesn't have to win an argument to change a person's mind'. So I don't hope to trigger all your defenses today or even antagonize you. I'm simply stating what I have come to know and understand from the experience of my own mind change and healing.
'Gods', 'holy books', 'demons', these are symbols, and symbols aren't the things they represent. To shun symbols is to put ones self in an impossible position. For example, if there are no symbols then there can't be communication. In this case, we know that the human mind works beyond logic or even rationality. The more we dig into the rational and logical the more we get into what I may call 'super rational' and 'super logical'. And in these zones we can't escape symbols if at all we are to master our minds.
Otherwise it will be 'a jungle out there' as you seem to see it. In the jungle, you imply, everyone will try to beat his own path. But that's a sociological impossibility. Humans are social creatures who have to share meaning in order to exist. And for how long have humans been in existence? It can't be that it's a jungle out there. There's an accurate system of knowledge from psychiatry to mythology that can serve as a guide to mental maturity. And I have experienced both. There's a gold standard to subscribe to.
Humans don't know that God exist beause they have faith in his existence. People know that God exists from their experience and in the course of developing experience. Because symbols are created from experience. The other day I was reading of some new words being introduced to the English dictionary. It's the same process with 'God' or any other symbol that will replace 'him'.
In any case, I can say that your understanding of religion and faith is pretty superficial. You've been taken in by the most banal meanings that seem to be traded around. That's why you think it's all a jungle. In simple terms, you have been mis-educated. Why? Because education is about 'clearing the jungle' for humans. Think about this, you can't deny what you don't fear. If your mind is fearless then it can embrace everything because it has power. So your mind too has fear. It couldn't guide your friend or yourself because it has ignorance. So how can you be so confident of it? i will end this by saying that you indeed learnt right on winning arguments and changing minds, in my case i am not after changing minds people are who they are. your paragraphs 2 - 3 are argumentative, arguments of which i do not wish to indulge. your attempts to analyze and extrapolate my understanding of religion based on what i have posted are way off the mark, i posted a superficial post and you came to a superficial conclusion. on the last three lines of your post, you need to calm your mind some people are not easily figured out as you want to put it. Oh but for the lack of a LIKE button.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@vky, reading a person, any person, is very easy. The only precondition is the reader must have read himself. I read, and know myself, therefore I can call your bluff.
Why do you want to 'close' the conversation? How many reasons can there be for this apparently, premature closure?
Everywhere I look, I see people trying to change other people's minds. That's why humans have developed such sophisticated languages. From the womb the child wants to change the world, and the world to change the child. That's why you started this thread and put it under the health section. So that healing can be achieved. Now if 'people just are' then why was the experiment described by your link conducted? Why was it published? Why is your friend a hermit? Why did you have a 'convo' with him?
I look at your posts and I see a person trying to raise all kinds of defense mechanisms. And a mass of self contradiction.
Even your assertion that you've only given us a superficial view of religion and that you have something else you haven't said doesn't make sense. Either what you've said is consistent with what you haven't or is inconsistent. Whichever option you take the result is the same. Contradiction and inconsistency.
You refuse to 'indulge' in 'argument'. Why? Whichever reason you give still proves the contradiction in you.
You are such a coward @vky!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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aemathenge wrote:vky wrote:tycho wrote:@vky, let me start this post by recalling what I once learned from C.S. Lewis, a long time ago when I was starting the journey to change and clean 'my mind'. 'One doesn't have to win an argument to change a person's mind'. So I don't hope to trigger all your defenses today or even antagonize you. I'm simply stating what I have come to know and understand from the experience of my own mind change and healing.
'Gods', 'holy books', 'demons', these are symbols, and symbols aren't the things they represent. To shun symbols is to put ones self in an impossible position. For example, if there are no symbols then there can't be communication. In this case, we know that the human mind works beyond logic or even rationality. The more we dig into the rational and logical the more we get into what I may call 'super rational' and 'super logical'. And in these zones we can't escape symbols if at all we are to master our minds.
Otherwise it will be 'a jungle out there' as you seem to see it. In the jungle, you imply, everyone will try to beat his own path. But that's a sociological impossibility. Humans are social creatures who have to share meaning in order to exist. And for how long have humans been in existence? It can't be that it's a jungle out there. There's an accurate system of knowledge from psychiatry to mythology that can serve as a guide to mental maturity. And I have experienced both. There's a gold standard to subscribe to.
Humans don't know that God exist beause they have faith in his existence. People know that God exists from their experience and in the course of developing experience. Because symbols are created from experience. The other day I was reading of some new words being introduced to the English dictionary. It's the same process with 'God' or any other symbol that will replace 'him'.
In any case, I can say that your understanding of religion and faith is pretty superficial. You've been taken in by the most banal meanings that seem to be traded around. That's why you think it's all a jungle. In simple terms, you have been mis-educated. Why? Because education is about 'clearing the jungle' for humans. Think about this, you can't deny what you don't fear. If your mind is fearless then it can embrace everything because it has power. So your mind too has fear. It couldn't guide your friend or yourself because it has ignorance. So how can you be so confident of it? i will end this by saying that you indeed learnt right on winning arguments and changing minds, in my case i am not after changing minds people are who they are. your paragraphs 2 - 3 are argumentative, arguments of which i do not wish to indulge. your attempts to analyze and extrapolate my understanding of religion based on what i have posted are way off the mark, i posted a superficial post and you came to a superficial conclusion. on the last three lines of your post, you need to calm your mind some people are not easily figured out as you want to put it. Oh but for the lack of a LIKE button. Mass man thinks LIKING is a virtue. Poor man.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/3/2007 Posts: 1,634
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Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:Muriel wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:limanika wrote:Wakanyugi wrote:tycho wrote:All is not in the mind. All is mind. Thanks Tycho. You are quite right. I digress. A new creature living on sea bed has just been discoverd, was it in the mind? A new one will be discovered 2100 is it in the mind now ? It is often said that a major distinction of human beings is the ability of the mind to 'look back on itself' - to assume an external viewing point (even where none exists) for the purpose of critical self questioning. This is not to say that the mind understand itself fully. Far from it. There is a relationship between 'understanding' and 'knowledge'. What is it? Same difference! Is understanding without knowing possible? Yes of course. There is understanding based on faith, is there not? Yes, absolutely there is. There crumbles the atheists' bulwark. Hence Vky's skepticism of point #4 is nothing but fear. There can be knowledge, understanding with and by faith. The details of that is another story. Faith hence cannot be the dirty water in the Ferrari engine of the human mind. What could it be? What is this maliciously holding back the human mind? The 'dirty water' is the fear, negativity and essentially what Nietzsche/Rand describe as the 'curse of the irrational mind.' Anything misused, including faith, can fit in that description. A lot of the 'dirty water' comes from us holding mistaken beliefs (faith) and the fear of the unknown (ignorance). By the way I do not associate faith with religion, although it is a big part of it. Science relies on faith too, as the article Vky posted clearly implies. Anyone who has ever ridden in a car, flown in a plane, eaten food cooked by another, or even had a friend was relying, at one point or the other, on faith. Yes there can be understanding based on faith and it does not require one to practice a religion. "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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