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The Name of Jesus Christ
Ja-Kom
#21 Posted : Tuesday, December 15, 2009 1:03:13 PM
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Joined: 4/28/2009
Posts: 290
@Atiriri,
Atiririlet is how old??
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
kanduma
#22 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 1:03:08 AM
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Joined: 11/15/2009
Posts: 21
should children be baptized?...i can't remember which verses i heard the pastor quoting but i have always thought its a personal conviction and so my kids are not yet baptized(5years and 2months old)
life is a swinging pendulum,dont stay up too long to forget that you could come down]
akowally
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:04:00 AM
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Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
I do not believe that children baptism is allowed anywhere in the Bible...I believe this is because of the fact that one has to repent by faith and deeds and have personal convictions from the word before baptism...

@ atiriri

The basis of the child's baptism should not be due to your marriage but only due to him developing deep convictions from the Bible and repenting...if he/she is of the right age and has fulfilled this, then I don't think anyone should refuse to baptize him...if that is still a problem, then you need to look for a good church which has the Bible strictly as the standard...most churches are lost to denominational rituals and sometimes insist on things which are not in the Bible...
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AlphDoti
#24 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:15:40 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@Ja-kom, @akowally look at it this way. Were we to study the religion known today as "Christ"ianity, we would find that it is the interpretation of St. Paul of what he personally believed to be the religion of Jesus.

Christianity as it stands has been reduced to an interpretation of the words of Jesus within the context of what Paul taught rather than the other way around which is the way it should be.

We would expect Christianity to be the teachings of Jesus and that the words of Paul and everyone else would be accepted or rejected according to their conformity to these Jesus's teachings.

However, you know that Jesus never in his lifetime mentioned an original sin.
He never asked anyone to worship him, neither did he ever claim to be part of a Trinity.
His words and actions are those of a loyal messenger of God who faithfully wihtout fault followed the commands of his Lord and only told his followers to do the same and to worship God alone (John 4:21, John 4:23, Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8 ...etc.).
JeanLucPiccard
#25 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:44:23 AM
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Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 23
Location: Nairobi
@AlphDoti, you sound like a Jehovah's Witness or something. Your doctrine seems to be in line with them.

Basically what you're saying is that Paul's writings should not be in scripture. We're told that All Scripture is God breathed and is profitable for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3.16). You may say that is part of Paul's writings. Well, even Peter says that no prophecy of scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.

Therefore, I ask you, AlphDoti, are you saying that we should remove Paul's writings from the Bible?
Wendz
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 7:59:37 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
While we are at this, someone educate me here.

@ako says that children can not be baptised because one has to repent his sins before baptism which is very correct. It is argued that children would not be required to repent because they actually have not committed any sin since we only commit a sin when we transgress God's will and teachings which is also very correct... Now, if the kid is innocent, why was i taught that all of us including the kid in the womb is guilty of the original sin?

If say that the children are guilty of the original sin, so what happens if they die before they are baptised? Does it mean they are condemned to eternal fire because their parents chose not to baptise children?

What is the ideal age for a kid to be baptised assuming that an infant can not be baptised? At what age do children understand about repentance, accepting Jesus as personal saviour (am still struggling to understand what it means to be "saved") etc.
Ja-Kom
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:24:45 AM
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Joined: 4/28/2009
Posts: 290
Aplh,Paul’s credentials as an apostle were attacked, even in his own lifetime, by those who desired to lead the church into legalism and other errant ideologies. Paul defends himself from the spurious attacks of false teachers in 1 Corinthians 9; 2 Corinthians 12; and Galatians 1.
Secondly,Jesus was obviously human (He was born, grew up, ate, slept, felt pain, sadness and fear, was tempted, and finally died), it gradually became clear to His disciples that He was more than just a man.

1)He had power over sickness, death, demons and the forces of nature (e.g. Luke 8:22-56)

2)He claimed authority over divinely given laws and institutions like the Sabbath (Luke 6:5)

3)He forgave sins. (Isaiah 43:25; Luke 5:18-25)

4)He claimed to be the final Judge of mankind (Psalm 9:7,8; Matthew 25:31,32)
5)He spoke of Himself in ways that were interpreted as claims to divinity (John 10:31-33)

6)He claimed to be the embodiment of the Father (John 14:7-10)

7)He accepted the worship of others...so wasnt just a messenger as you say. (John 20:26-29)

Yet He was clearly separate from the Father to whom he prayed.
Christians have resolved this paradox by saying that Jesus is both human and divine. But they have disagreed over the exact details of how Jesus? divine and human natures are related to each other.

For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
Noble
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 8:38:06 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/19/2009
Posts: 173
Location: NAIROBI
I am just wondering. Is it right to baptize with water? John said 'I baptize you with water but the one who come after me will baptize you with the Holy Ghost". There is no record that Jesus ever baptized anyone with water.

When Jesus instructed the disciples to go make disciples baptizing them in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost, did he specify that they had to use water?
AlphDoti
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:57:28 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@wendz you're asking good questions. Children are born clean. Even Jesus himself said this (Mathew 19:14, Luke 18:15-17).
See what God says: every body will carry their own cross (Deutronomy 24:16). See what Jesus says: you'll die for your own sins (John 8:21).

We only sin when we digress from God. Jesus never taught about original sin. These are man-made teachings.
If all sins are washed away on the cross, then why are we still kneeling down to pray for God's mercy?

Jesus taught about Salvation: follow the commandments. He never said wait for me to die, then you get saved. No!

@Jo-kam, @Jean, I'm not attacking Paul. Please see the truth. Paul was but only a saint. He wrote his books according to his opinion (he said this himself).
Christianity should be the teachings of Jesus and that the words of Paul and everyone else should be accepted or rejected according to their conformity to these Jesus's teachings.
You should not accept where he has opposed God Himself. You should not accept where he has opposed Jesus. Jesus was sent by God.

Always remember that God reveals his laws & culture only through his prophets (Amos 3:7).
akowally
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:03:38 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 1,126
Location: Nairobi
Wendz wrote:
While we are at this, someone educate me here.

@ako says that children can not be baptised because one has to repent his sins before baptism which is very correct. It is argued that children would not be required to repent because they actually have not committed any sin since we only commit a sin when we transgress God's will and teachings which is also very correct... Now, if the kid is innocent, why was i taught that all of us including the kid in the womb is guilty of the original sin?

If say that the children are guilty of the original sin, so what happens if they die before they are baptised? Does it mean they are condemned to eternal fire because their parents chose not to baptise children?

What is the ideal age for a kid to be baptised assuming that an infant can not be baptised? At what age do children understand about repentance, accepting Jesus as personal saviour (am still struggling to understand what it means to be "saved") etc.


@ Wendz

The infants have committed no sin and thus cannot be baptized. The Bible says in many places that we should obey God's commands...and it does say that we should be baptized after repentance. There is no one single person who was baptized as an infant, NONE in the entire bible. Thus rest assured if that kid dies before he knows God, God will be the one to judge but we can rest assured that his judgement will be fair. Just baptizing will not guarantee anyone heaven, whether child or adult. But like I said again God is fair.

As for the ideal age...depending on his understanding, the progression should be like this...he has studied, the bible, been convicted by it and repented of his sins by faith and by deeds and live out with the Bible as the standard...after doing this then he is eligible to be baptized. (My use of "he" refers to both sexes.

Now, about being saved...

There is nothing like being a Christian, a true Christian, a disciple and saved. Once you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, you become a Christian or a Disciple (the Bible refers to Christ's followers as Disciples more than as Christians but uses both words to mean the same thing).

Thus when you become a Christian, you live according to the Bible's commands, evangelize, pray to God, do regular confessions to God and fellow Christians (for guidance e.t.c.), and of course go to a Bible based church and have frequent fellowships with fellow Christians. And these are all from the Bible.

The Bible warns strictly against being lukewarm...you are either hot or cold. Thus when you become a Christian, according to the Bible, then you are a Disciple and are saved.









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akowally
#31 Posted : Thursday, December 17, 2009 11:30:32 AM
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Joined: 5/20/2008
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Location: Nairobi
@ Wendz

Children can be dedicated to God e.g. like in the following verse:

For this child I prayed; and the Lord hath given me my petition which I asked of him: Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord" (I Samuel 1:27-28)


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AlphDoti
#32 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 7:47:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
@akowally, @Ja-Kom, @Jean I'm glad you're giving a thought to what I said. Just to add a little more.

The majority of Christians believe in the following basic concepts:
- The Trinity,
- The divine Sonship of Jesus,
- The original sin, and
- The death of "the Son of God" on the cross in punishment for the original sin of Adam.

Everything else is demoted into the background. A Christian can be saved and enter heaven by simply believing in the above creeds. According to Paul, the previous law and commandments of God are worthless. To him, just a belief will guarantee eternal salvation. For example, he's quoted to have said:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28.)

What does Jesus say? "Why are you calling me holy? No one is good other than God alone. If you want eternal life, then follow the laws" (Luka 18:18)
What does God say? "As with body without spirit is dead, is Faith without actions is dead." (Jacob 2:26)
Ja-Kom
#33 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 8:55:00 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/28/2009
Posts: 290
Grace is favour-which NONE of us deserve, yet you maintain that it is 'conditional'!..so i see it,correct me if am wrong.
There is also more than one definition of sin, for there are many 'faces' of sin, eg.,
- ‘Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.’
1 John 3:4.
- ‘All unrighteousness is sin.’ 1 John 5:17
- ‘Everything which is not of faith is sin.’ Romans 14:23…and this is where your take on the Faith concept is wrong ma Brother.

Romans 3:19-24 (New International Version)
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus".

The love for, and faith in Our Heavenly Father, with the belief in our Lord Jesus Christ, is the only way to do 'good works'. That is why faith without works is dead, just like works without faith is.

Without faith, we have absolutely no understanding of what love truly is. And everything we do without that 'godly love' which comes from faith, is done for the wrong reasons and completely worthless.

Without faith, we do things to be seen, to be appreciated, or to justify ourselves to the world and to ourselves as well. These things are useless.

But with faith, we learn God's love for one another, and for His creation. And it is that 'true love' that makes 'true works'. Not that we have done a single thing... but that God has done something beautiful through us! And this is only possible in our belief in the Lord Jesus! That is why the crowns will be cast at HIS feet, and not remain on our heads.

So worthless works are our own because they are worthless. And those true 'good works', are not our own, and thus have true value. That is why they should be done in secret. That is why we are not to boast. They are not ours when done for the right reason. God gets ALL the glory.

This even goes for what we like to call our 'spiritual gifts. They are not ours! They are God's! And they are not 'ours' to have, but they are God's to give THROUGH us. So our 'spiritual gifts, are FROM God, and FOR others. We just have the privilege of being messengers, delivering God's gift to our fellow human beings. So we must not even dare brag about our 'spiritual gifts' as if they make us something special.

This is what faith is, love is, and what 'works' are. When something is done in 'true godly love', there is no law, only faith. And only God may have the glory.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19
JeanLucPiccard
#34 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 12:32:26 PM
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Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 23
Location: Nairobi
@Alph-Doti, about the whole children being born clean thing, I dont see how those verses confirm that. It only says that the kindgdom belongs to those who are like children. It's like me saying that my son is like Bill Gates. You cannot therefore infer that I mean he is rich, I could mean he wears spectacles! More backup is needed to support that argument.

What I know is Rom 3:23, Isa 53:6

Anyway, you have not yet answered my questions. In summary:

- Please confirm that you do not consider Paul's books as legitimate part of scripture
- Please therefore confirm that you do not consider Paul to be a true apostle (you say that his words are his, and not scripture - you said that he said so himself - yet you refer to one particular section where he mentioned that this was his opinion, and not from God. It would mean, therefore, to me, that he his other writings to be from God)
- Also, since I have concluded that in your opinion, Paul's writings are not legitimate scripture, let us know which books of the Bible you consider inspired of God and legitimate.
AlphDoti
#35 Posted : Friday, December 18, 2009 3:50:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Is it "Blind faith" or "Prove all things"?

Please allow me to answer you using the scriptue. But, let us first establish the ground rules.
All Bibles in existence today tell us that Christians are taught by Jesus himself:

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment." Mark 12:29-30. And now who's teaching people about trinity? Is it Jesus? You know who it is.

They are also told "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21
And "For God is not [the author] of confusion" 1 Corinthians 14:33. Now who's telling us to forget about laws?

So, contrary to the teachings of many, Jesus did not want his followers to believe everything they were told on "blind faith."
Rather, he wanted his followers to believe "with all thy mind." He wanted us to THINK in order to protect his words from corruption.
Let us comply with the teaching of the one God has sent, Jesus, and see where the truth and our minds will lead us.

Based on all the above, is this not fair? Is this not what the Bible and Jesus himself say?
So let us use our minds and be inquisitive. Let us ask questions so that we may indeed be able to truthfully claim that we have loved God "with all our minds."
akowally
#36 Posted : Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:09:43 AM
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@ AlphDoti

I like the fact that you have quoted from Paul on the last post. As Christians we use the Bible as the way that God talks to us and just like Ja-Kom well put it, Timothy 3.16 says that All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. Thus we are not to chose what one person says as true and disregard another...thus we can not disregard Paul's posts. If he wanted to derail Christians from Jesus' teaching, then why would he preach and baptise all in Jesus' name. If Raila wants Kibaki out...he will openly say that he opposes him and wants people to vote for him.


@ Noble
Baptism on water is what was commanded by Christ and as Christians we were COMMANDED to do it.

Mat 28.18-20

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Let me talk just a bit on the Holy Spirit

1. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit

This is received at baptism

Acts 2.38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8.9-11
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit Acts 2 and Acts 10

1.This was predicted i.e. prophesied about
2.It was a promise and not a command
3.It came without warning
4.They spoke in tongues (not babbling). Tongues means a language that exists. More about tongues can be found on 1 Corinth 12 and 14 which has the correctives on how to use them. 1 Corinth 13.8-10 prophesies that use of tongues will be stilled. Note 1.Cor 14.26-28: 2 or 3 should speak, one at a time and someone must interpret.
The modern tongue movement began in the early 1900's but speaking in tongues is common to many religions because the religion got dry and stale.

A person can be filled with the spirit without speaking in tongues e.g. John the Baptist (Luke 1.15). Jesus never spoke in tongues and was accorded the full measure of the Spirit (John 3.34-36)

5.The purpose of was to usher in the Kingdom


Baptism of the Holy Spirit is no longer present as it was a prophesy/promise that has been fulfilled. It was never a general command to all Christians but only for the and was fulfilled at Pentecost and to the gentiles in Acts 10. Here they were clearly baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1.8 "I baptize you with[d] water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." This was not a command but a prophesy and like unlike what we are COMMANDED to baptize (in water) in the name of the father, the son and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28.18-20.

Therefore the one we practice is the baptism in water in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the indwelling of the Spirit as taught on Matt 28.18-20

The baptism is recorded all through the book of Acts and the epistles. 1 Peter 3.21 (written around 62 AD). Water baptism is the only one that was being practiced by 60-62 AD. And like Paul says there is only ONE baptism (Ephesians 4.4-6)

I hope that answers your questions.
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akowally
#37 Posted : Friday, January 08, 2010 8:54:42 AM
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Joined: 5/20/2008
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Location: Nairobi
@ AlphDoti

Probably you were on holiday but I hope you got this
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