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Complete and consistent Juche
tycho
#61 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 12:53:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:


What is 'reliable'? You definitely have heard of the phrase 'lost in translation'. Accuracy cannot be overemphasised hence the question - What is 'reliable'?

A complete and consisten African system like the one you are proposing is absolutely not contradicted, challenged, mitigated by the Wescott and Hort 'case'. The Wescott and Hort case is a lesson from the past for the future. From kitambo to kitambo. It is a practical lesson that humans should have in order to excel. But like all lessons, is it ever learned?

The 'complete and consistent Juche', a language, will need to learn from the Wescott and Hort case. It is 'doomed' if it doesn't.


In this case 'reliable' is the presence of a pattern on the timeline.

'Doomed'? What exactly, is to be doomed?



symbols
#62 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:02:42 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
How will Juche approach individual and collective choice?
Wakanyugi
#63 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:14:30 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#64 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:28:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
symbols wrote:
How will Juche approach individual and collective choice?


Subtly, you're asking what comes first. The collective or the individual. Chicken-egg.

The chicken and the egg; the chicken can 'decide' to take a walk, eat. The egg? Will it hatch?

When the egg hatches and becomes a chick, is the chick independent from the Chicken?

The same way for the individual and the 'collective'. Independent and co-dependent. The egg and the Chicken are one and the same thing. Identity.

Muriel
#65 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:32:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
tycho wrote:


In this case 'reliable' is the presence of a pattern on the timeline.

'Doomed'? What exactly, is to be doomed?




'Doomed' is to be plagued with many conflicting interpretations that are backed up by their respective changes that should not have been.
Muriel
#66 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:34:23 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.



Hello there Wakanyugi?

I am glad to see you here with us.
tycho
#67 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:41:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.


True. 'Beginning' and 'end', are instances of self consciousness. Self consciousness results in a timeline, and language.

Then, for your assertion to be true, something else must be true. Everything there is, is the Universe. The individual is the Universe. And the cat.

It is. But there's language, differentiation of Identity. I am. And order alas!
tycho
#68 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 1:48:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:
tycho wrote:


In this case 'reliable' is the presence of a pattern on the timeline.

'Doomed'? What exactly, is to be doomed?




'Doomed' is to be plagued with many conflicting interpretations that are backed up by their respective changes that should not have been.


There's nothing like 'changes that shouldn't have been'. The timeline doesn't care for personal tastes. In the history of Man, change has come without their consent, or control.

Change always is, conflict, even of interpretation always is. Doomed, isn't as bad or fearful as you wish it to be. It is.
symbols
#69 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:11:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
tycho wrote:
symbols wrote:
How will Juche approach individual and collective choice?


Subtly, you're asking what comes first. The collective or the individual. Chicken-egg.

The chicken and the egg; the chicken can 'decide' to take a walk, eat. The egg? Will it hatch?

When the egg hatches and becomes a chick, is the chick independent from the Chicken?

The same way for the individual and the 'collective'. Independent and co-dependent.The egg and the Chicken are one and the same thing. Identity.



I was asking about choice.An individual or collective can choose to act or think in a myriad of ways based on diverse influences and motives.Are you saying shared identity will change that?
Wakanyugi
#70 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:14:01 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.


True. 'Beginning' and 'end', are instances of self consciousness. Self consciousness results in a timeline, and language.

Then, for your assertion to be true, something else must be true. Everything there is, is the Universe. The individual is the Universe. And the cat.

It is. But there's language, differentiation of Identity. I am. And order alas!


Differentiation is a human invention, a useful tool for navigating in our self created 3D reality etc, but only up to a point. The truth is that we are not different, although we play the differentiation game very well. I believe it was Marianne Williamson who said:

"Every problem emerges from the false belief that we are separate from one another, and every answer emerges from the realization we are not."

She has a point.

But, back to the Universe. How can it have a past or future when it contains all these qualities and many more within it? Quantum theory posits that everything that could exist already does.

Another way of putting it is, nothing can exist outside of the Universe and to describe it as having a history means you are assuming a position 'outside' of it - an impossibility. Therein lies the non sequitur I referred to.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#71 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:41:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.


True. 'Beginning' and 'end', are instances of self consciousness. Self consciousness results in a timeline, and language.

Then, for your assertion to be true, something else must be true. Everything there is, is the Universe. The individual is the Universe. And the cat.

It is. But there's language, differentiation of Identity. I am. And order alas!


Differentiation is a human invention, a useful tool for navigating in our self created 3D reality etc, but only up to a point. The truth is that we are not different, although we play the differentiation game very well. I believe it was Marianne Williamson who said:

"Every problem emerges from the false belief that we are separate from one another, and every answer emerges from the realization we are not."

She has a point.

But, back to the Universe. How can it have a past or future when it contains all these qualities and many more within it? Quantum theory posits that everything that could exist already does.

Another way of putting it is, nothing can exist outside of the Universe and to describe it as having a history means you are assuming a position 'outside' of it - an impossibility. Therein lies the non sequitur I referred to.




The Universe, can see itself. Because Humans are the Universe. And Humans are self conscious.
Wakanyugi
#72 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:47:53 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.


True. 'Beginning' and 'end', are instances of self consciousness. Self consciousness results in a timeline, and language.

Then, for your assertion to be true, something else must be true. Everything there is, is the Universe. The individual is the Universe. And the cat.

It is. But there's language, differentiation of Identity. I am. And order alas!


Differentiation is a human invention, a useful tool for navigating in our self created 3D reality etc, but only up to a point. The truth is that we are not different, although we play the differentiation game very well. I believe it was Marianne Williamson who said:

"Every problem emerges from the false belief that we are separate from one another, and every answer emerges from the realization we are not."

She has a point.

But, back to the Universe. How can it have a past or future when it contains all these qualities and many more within it? Quantum theory posits that everything that could exist already does.

Another way of putting it is, nothing can exist outside of the Universe and to describe it as having a history means you are assuming a position 'outside' of it - an impossibility. Therein lies the non sequitur I referred to.




The Universe, can see itself. Because Humans are the Universe. And Humans are self conscious.


Tycho; allow me to put this this way:

1. 'You' are the Universe

2. 'You' are aware of everything 'now' because you are 'all that is'

3. Things like history, past, future, change, you, I, them, differentiation are simply games that 'You' invents and play.
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#73 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:01:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi, and I, don't think 'games' necessarily implies not worthy of concern, speech, action. On the contrary games are the most involving. Games are the Universe.

And humans are structuring the game as they are being structured by 'it'. Self consciousness and its power.
tycho
#74 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:10:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
'Row your boat gently down the stream; life's like a dream'. 'Row'. Know. See. Define. Islolate. Create.

Dream.
Wakanyugi
#75 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 3:40:14 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi, and I, don't think 'games' necessarily implies not worthy of concern, speech, action. On the contrary games are the most involving. Games are the Universe.

And humans are structuring the game as they are being structured by 'it'. Self consciousness and its power.


I do not mean to express any judgement at all. You are right, games are important, after all they form 99.99% of what we do on Earth.

But this is not the ultimate reason for humanity's Earth walk. I believe the reason for our being here, playing these games, is to eventually transcend the limiting illusion of separation.

True self awareness is the knowledge that you are playing a game, even as you do so. Then you can, if you wish, transcend that reality...a most liberating event, I assure you.

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#76 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 4:53:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
Muriel wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.



Hello there Wakanyugi?

I am glad to see you here with us.


Thanks Muriel.

Maybe you can help our brother Tycho. Sometimes he takes this illusion stuff too seriously.

Like the man who walks into a pub, orders a few beers, gets drunk and then thinks inebriation is his permanent state.

I worry that brother Tycho is going to wake up with a 'maduong' hangover one of these days. smile
"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
tycho
#77 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:43:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi, and I, don't think 'games' necessarily implies not worthy of concern, speech, action. On the contrary games are the most involving. Games are the Universe.

And humans are structuring the game as they are being structured by 'it'. Self consciousness and its power.


I do not mean to express any judgement at all. You are right, games are important, after all they form 99.99% of what we do on Earth.

But this is not the ultimate reason for humanity's Earth walk. I believe the reason for our being here, playing these games, is to eventually transcend the limiting illusion of separation.

True self awareness is the knowledge that you are playing a game, even as you do so. Then you can, if you wish, transcend that reality...a most liberating event, I assure you.



So far we agree on the game, what we don't agree about is the ultimate end of the human life. Separeteness has been transcended, but that's not the end of seperation.

Even after knowing the game, the game has to be played.
tycho
#78 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 5:46:34 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Wakanyugi wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.



Hello there Wakanyugi?

I am glad to see you here with us.


Thanks Muriel.

Maybe you can help our brother Tycho. Sometimes he takes this illusion stuff too seriously.

Like the man who walks into a pub, orders a few beers, gets drunk and then thinks inebriation is his permanent state.

I worry that brother Tycho is going to wake up with a 'maduong' hangover one of these days. smile


Your position @Wakanyugi, isn't tenable. In fact, you haven't said anything at all, here.
Wakanyugi
#79 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:01:32 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
Muriel wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
If one considers the history of Man, and even the history of the Universe, and his subjectivity, several things become clear. Among them;


Tycho, I was going to respond to your post when I saw the above non sequitur. Surely, the Universe by its very nature and definition (as all that is) can not have a history or a future. It simply is.



Hello there Wakanyugi?

I am glad to see you here with us.


Thanks Muriel.

Maybe you can help our brother Tycho. Sometimes he takes this illusion stuff too seriously.

Like the man who walks into a pub, orders a few beers, gets drunk and then thinks inebriation is his permanent state.

I worry that brother Tycho is going to wake up with a 'maduong' hangover one of these days. smile


Your position @Wakanyugi, isn't tenable. In fact, you haven't said anything at all, here.


Oh, you are offended are you?

Maybe that was the intention...mhhh.


"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
Wakanyugi
#80 Posted : Tuesday, June 10, 2014 6:08:09 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/3/2007
Posts: 1,635
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi wrote:
tycho wrote:
Wakanyugi, and I, don't think 'games' necessarily implies not worthy of concern, speech, action. On the contrary games are the most involving. Games are the Universe.

And humans are structuring the game as they are being structured by 'it'. Self consciousness and its power.


I do not mean to express any judgement at all. You are right, games are important, after all they form 99.99% of what we do on Earth.

But this is not the ultimate reason for humanity's Earth walk. I believe the reason for our being here, playing these games, is to eventually transcend the limiting illusion of separation.

True self awareness is the knowledge that you are playing a game, even as you do so. Then you can, if you wish, transcend that reality...a most liberating event, I assure you.



So far we agree on the game, what we don't agree about is the ultimate end of the human life. Separateness has been transcended, but that's not the end of separation.

Even after knowing the game, the game has to be played.


There you go again, taking the game too seriously. Like the Gor Mahia fan who insists that football is not a matter of life and death but more important than that?

We created separateness, as a game. It has not served us very well at all. So if we transcend it, how does separation then remain? Separate from what?

"The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth." (Niels Bohr)
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