Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Politics
»
Sudan women face death for Christianity
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
|
I'll repeat, the Abrahamic religions come from the same root. The greatest prophets are found in the same books. They all believe in the same God. There are very many striking similarities in these religions. The Tanakh (Judaism) was written in Hebrew, the Christian bible contains the books in the Tanakh and the New Testament (the latter written in Greek) while the Quran is written in Arabic. God is Yahweh in Hebrew and Allah in Arabic. Jews and Arabs are Semitic, descends of Shem, with the three holy books being of the same theological and Semitic roots. Angels Gabriel, Michael, etc are mentioned in these books. These religions acknowledge Jesus existed, but differ on his personality. Judaism claim he was a false prophet, Christians proclaim him as the son of God while Islam states he was the greatest prophet among the many that came. And that is the major difference between these religions. Muslims believe the Quran served to correct errors found in the Hebrew and Christian bibles. Not that it negated these scriptures, but simply found them distorted over the years. We could continue playing ping-pong with verses here... @AlphDoti, you may see this as a simplified view, but it's the truth, no? Makes this whole debate of us against them even more weird. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:...Besides that, this sentencing presents inconsistency to Islam itself.
I do not wish to trade insults, but I wish to put up a defense for this lady, and all humanity. Even if only in wazua. @tycho, let us do this. Please show me the inconsistency. @AlphDoti, perhaps you have not realized it, but our conversation so far has been focused on proving this. And so far I have done my duty. I have been waiting for you to respond. Kindly. Show me the inconsistency you referred to above. In terms of words not in sets. We will handle the sets later. If two systems can be distinguished, then by implication there must be a third system that holds the two systems, and as such, the two systems being distinguished must be subsystems of the third system. And hence neither of the contending systems can claim completeness and consistency. And if any of the contending systems is defined by truth, in terms of completeness and consistency, then it must be apparent to those who labor for truth. So again my brother @tycho I ask you, please show me, even one inconsistency in Islam as you allege above. Using what I have posted above. And taking your response. I will put a general observation and then a particular example. If Islam negates what can be logically proven, then it doesn't recognize reason. But it claims reason. Therefore it's inconsistent. Particularly you @AlphDoti, deliberately choose not to follow a reasonable method and chooses to either defend or assert. But you claim to be reasonable. Therefore you are inconsistent. @tycho, what has Islam negated? Who logically proved, when, where? Surely @AlphDoti, don't pretend not to understand; a human is about to die of apostasy because it's said that Islam deems this as correct. I, on the other hand I've given a proof that shows, logically, that such judgment is flawed. Besides, I will refer you to Gödel's incompleteness theorems.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
quicksand wrote:AlphDoti wrote:quicksand wrote:AlphDoti wrote:muganda wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@muganda, you said she's Christian, right? Please define "evil" and "sin" in terms of Christianity. Then tell me if you have the following in your Bible. And if I need holy Spirit to understand the English in the text, tell me also. Indeed she said 'she is a Christian'  Bwana @AlphDoti, not all truth is to be found in my Bible or the Quran. The Milky Way for example is not mentioned once, yet it exists with absolute certainty. Admonitions that advocate we live as barbarians in 2014 are "sublime to the ignorant, useful to rulers, and ridiculous to the wise". One wonders why God gave man reason, intellect, and will! Why skew our beliefs to profess what we despise, kill, hate; is this the purpose of religion? In Christianity, this is the greatest command: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” @muganda so you believe in the verse: Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Distance from this tragic situation is allowing us the luxury of winded discussions. So I will pose one question to you @AlphaDoti and insist that you answer directly and simply: If you were Sudanese and this woman was your sister, would you execute her on the charge of apostacy? (Now it is only fair that I answer as well. I would not, regardless of what quoted texts in the Bible say. I would rather wait to answer to God Himself rather than take 2 lives). Now I await your answer. You too @guru267, if you don't mind My aswere is: Yes, I would! How does she get pregnant without a husband (read not married)!If you're Christian, then I tell you even your God (my God too, but I emphasize the Bible here) Says that such crimes are punishable. But you preach water and drink wine. Let me give you a story to show you fairness and Justice in Islam. PLEASE READ THE STORY BELOWThe Messenger of God, Muhammad (pbuh) was just and fair in every aspect of his life and in the application of the religion. Hadith says: "One time, a woman from a rich family, with good connections was found guilty of theft. For the prestige of her tribe, some prominent people interceded to save her from punishment. The Prophet refused to condone the crime and expressed displeasure saying: "Many a community ruined itself in the past as they only punished the poor and ignored the offences of the exalted. By Allah, if Muhammad's (My) daughter Faatimah would have committed theft, her hand would have been severed." The Jews, in spite of their hostility to the Prophet were so impressed by his impartiality and sense of justice. They started bringing their cases to him and he decided them according to Jewish law. Evidence: That's why in Islamic countries:- crime rate is the lowest - poverty is the lowest (obligatory charity) - adultery is lowest - mipango wa kandos is lowest - cases of HIV is lowest - etc  I have your answer. The rest about fairness or lack of it in Islam I am not that interested in. I wanted to determine if you @AlphDoti, are a man of compassion, and whether your assertions of "there is no compulsion" hold conviction or are hollow. And indeed they are hollow, cause if you had conviction in them, you would acknowledge that she had left jurisdiction of Islam and therefore have no basis to say her marriage was void. And by analysing your singular response, I can say there is a systemic lack of compassion among adherents, tendency to be quickly offended, and to swiftly reach for violent retributions to harm others, women and children not spared - You are an enlightened man, and there is a way of mercy and. forgiveness (as Mohammed let the Bedouin go unharmed - no compulsion, remember?), yet you DO NOT CHOOSE IT. You made the same appalling choice as the dude in backwater Sudan did. Your peace message therefore rings hollow, because you do not live it. Peace is not just for Muslims, it should be for all inhabitants of Earth. Without compassion, you have no humanity; Without humanity, religion is irrelevant. @quicksand every country has a law, when the ruling is based on the law. What is the problem? The problem is you don't believe in that law. Because other countries kill treason offenders all the time; America, Australia, Kenya etc have treason in the law, just find out what is the penalty. If it were America executing treason case, would you make this big noise? Remember, there is no compulsion in religion, you can leave and practice new religion in peace. But, death penalty applies only if that person propagates new faith and speaks against Islam. This is same as treason in other countries i.e. selling the secrets of the country to an enemy then death penalty or life in prison. So Apostacy in Islam means that someone leaves Islam and starts speaking against it, and causing corruption. He is spreading things which are not peaceful. So for this if he is in Islamic country. Besides, this lady is pregnant when she is not married. This is "adultery". #ApostacyIsTreason
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
FOR YOU ALL
1. Just because somebody accusing somebody of fornication or spreading corruption does not mean automatic application of the law. No, not like that.
2. Islamic law requires that there be four witnesses for the application of this law.
3. The witnesses must be reliable witnesses, not just anybody.
Just and righteous people. And without reliable four witnesses, the law cannot be applied.
4. That's why the number of cases of people executed, in the last 1400 years to today, they are very, very few. They can be counted.
5. The evidence can be: confession, or recordings, or video evidence, or a woman gets pregant and gives birth to a baby, she becomes pregnant while her husband is away or not married etc.
6. Where there is clear evidence, the law will apply.
#BringTheRuling
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
I knew you'd use the 'apostacy is treason' as a defence. But the argument is flawed from the start. If the aims of the state were made to be that of individuals and their spirituality then humans would be robbed of their freedom. But states, should ideally nourish and protect freedom so that the individual can flourish as he/she pleases.
Is it proper to justify this act by saying that these are the laws of a sovereign state? The individual must always come before the state. Reversing this state of affairs is an act of treason in the real sense. Treason against human power and dignity.
Again, if these laws can't be put to the scrutiny of the whole world, how can we know that those laws are just? By implication there'd be no sense of justice.
The idea you're defending @AlphDoti is thus unjust and arbitrary. It is isolationist, and not subject to reason and conversation. It can't be studied.
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
|
AlphDoti wrote:FOR YOU ALL
1. Just because somebody accusing somebody of fornication or spreading corruption does not mean automatic application of the law. No, not like that.
2. Islamic law requires that there be four witnesses for the application of this law.
3. The witnesses must be reliable witnesses, not just anybody.
Just and righteous people. And without reliable four witnesses, the law cannot be applied.
4. That's why the number of cases of people executed, in the last 1400 years to today, they are very, very few. They can be counted.
5. The evidence can be: confession, or recordings, or video evidence, or a woman gets pregant and gives birth to a baby, she becomes pregnant while her husband is away or not married etc.
6. Where there is clear evidence, the law will apply.
#BringTheRuling This is a process and ritual, but it's not necessarily foolproof, especially when the idea that supports it is questionable. For example, take wazua's quote of the day, "How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg "- Abraham Lincoln
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2009 Posts: 2,375
|
AlphDoti wrote:quicksand wrote:AlphDoti wrote:quicksand wrote:AlphDoti wrote:muganda wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@muganda, you said she's Christian, right? Please define "evil" and "sin" in terms of Christianity. Then tell me if you have the following in your Bible. And if I need holy Spirit to understand the English in the text, tell me also. Indeed she said 'she is a Christian' Bwana @AlphDoti, not all truth is to be found in my Bible or the Quran. The Milky Way for example is not mentioned once, yet it exists with absolute certainty. Admonitions that advocate we live as barbarians in 2014 are "sublime to the ignorant, useful to rulers, and ridiculous to the wise". One wonders why God gave man reason, intellect, and will! Why skew our beliefs to profess what we despise, kill, hate; is this the purpose of religion? In Christianity, this is the greatest command: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” @muganda so you believe in the verse: Deuteronomy 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Distance from this tragic situation is allowing us the luxury of winded discussions. So I will pose one question to you @AlphaDoti and insist that you answer directly and simply: If you were Sudanese and this woman was your sister, would you execute her on the charge of apostacy? (Now it is only fair that I answer as well. I would not, regardless of what quoted texts in the Bible say. I would rather wait to answer to God Himself rather than take 2 lives). Now I await your answer. You too @guru267, if you don't mind My aswere is: Yes, I would! How does she get pregnant without a husband (read not married)!If you're Christian, then I tell you even your God (my God too, but I emphasize the Bible here) Says that such crimes are punishable. But you preach water and drink wine. Let me give you a story to show you fairness and Justice in Islam. PLEASE READ THE STORY BELOWThe Messenger of God, Muhammad (pbuh) was just and fair in every aspect of his life and in the application of the religion. Hadith says: "One time, a woman from a rich family, with good connections was found guilty of theft. For the prestige of her tribe, some prominent people interceded to save her from punishment. The Prophet refused to condone the crime and expressed displeasure saying: "Many a community ruined itself in the past as they only punished the poor and ignored the offences of the exalted. By Allah, if Muhammad's (My) daughter Faatimah would have committed theft, her hand would have been severed." The Jews, in spite of their hostility to the Prophet were so impressed by his impartiality and sense of justice. They started bringing their cases to him and he decided them according to Jewish law. Evidence: That's why in Islamic countries:- crime rate is the lowest - poverty is the lowest (obligatory charity) - adultery is lowest - mipango wa kandos is lowest - cases of HIV is lowest - etc I have your answer. The rest about fairness or lack of it in Islam I am not that interested in. I wanted to determine if you @AlphDoti, are a man of compassion, and whether your assertions of "there is no compulsion" hold conviction or are hollow. And indeed they are hollow, cause if you had conviction in them, you would acknowledge that she had left jurisdiction of Islam and therefore have no basis to say her marriage was void. And by analysing your singular response, I can say there is a systemic lack of compassion among adherents, tendency to be quickly offended, and to swiftly reach for violent retributions to harm others, women and children not spared - You are an enlightened man, and there is a way of mercy and. forgiveness (as Mohammed let the Bedouin go unharmed - no compulsion, remember?), yet you DO NOT CHOOSE IT. You made the same appalling choice as the dude in backwater Sudan did. Your peace message therefore rings hollow, because you do not live it. Peace is not just for Muslims, it should be for all inhabitants of Earth. Without compassion, you have no humanity; Without humanity, religion is irrelevant. @quicksand every country has a law, when the ruling is based on the law. What is the problem? The problem is you don't believe in that law. Because other countries kill treason offenders all the time; America, Australia, Kenya etc have treason in the law, just find out what is the penalty. If it were America executing treason case, would you make this big noise? Remember, there is no compulsion in religion, you can leave and practice new religion in peace. But, death penalty applies only if that person propagates new faith and speaks against Islam. This is same as treason in other countries i.e. selling the secrets of the country to an enemy then death penalty or life in prison. So Apostacy in Islam means that someone leaves Islam and starts speaking against it, and causing corruption. He is spreading things which are not peaceful. So for this if he is in Islamic country. Besides, this lady is pregnant when she is not married. This is "adultery".So being married to a christian=not married? #ApostacyIsTreason The woman is married to this man, Daniel Wani in the picture below. Married women do get pregnant. Yes or no?  It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2009 Posts: 2,375
|
More wedding pictures    It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt...
-Mark Twain
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
|
@AlphDoti, is Islamic law the same across Islam or is it different? In Kenya I don't hear of flogging. Does it happen, and if not, why? Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
|
|
|
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
|
tycho wrote:I knew you'd use the 'apostacy is treason' as a defence. But the argument is flawed from the start. If the aims of the state were made to be that of individuals and their spirituality then humans would be robbed of their freedom. But states, should ideally nourish and protect freedom so that the individual can flourish as he/she pleases.
Is it proper to justify this act by saying that these are the laws of a sovereign state? The individual must always come before the state. Reversing this state of affairs is an act of treason in the real sense. Treason against human power and dignity.
Again, if these laws can't be put to the scrutiny of the whole world, how can we know that those laws are just? By implication there'd be no sense of justice.
The idea you're defending @AlphDoti is thus unjust and arbitrary. It is isolationist, and not subject to reason and conversation. It can't be studied. Ignorance of an offense is not an excuse. Islam thrives to preserve human dignity, by looking at the family and its structures very important. Theft, murder, adultery and fornication... the laws are very strong. Death penalty can be applied by a court as punishment for the most serious of crimes, to serve as a deterrent from harming individual victims, or threaten to destabilize the foundation of society. According to Islamic law, the following two crimes can be punishable by death: 1. Intentional murder 2. Spreading mischief in the land such as - Treason (apostasy) - Terrorism - Land, sea, or air piracy - Rape - Adultery - Homosexual behavior Islam encourages marriage early, it permits polygamy, it permits divorce because people can have problems, these things can be worked out and there are options for them. So beyond that now, any corruption in society by mocking and preaching against Islam and any kind of illicit sex is treated as a grave crime. And the punishment is very, very grave. But in a society where there is no rules, or where rules are not followed, you end up in situation where adultery is accepted. Bastard children are born or rise of sexual transmitted diseases. Because people copy the West. They lie to women and say you need to be "liberated". They tell women when you are liberated, you can show off your flesh and sex everywhere. This way, they can be able to use women to achieve their business objective: fashion, movie industry, music, advertisement etc
|
|
|
Wazua
»
Club SK
»
Politics
»
Sudan women face death for Christianity
Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.
|