Wazua
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Sudan women face death for Christianity
Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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nakujua wrote:guru267 wrote:nakujua wrote:guru267 wrote:Lolest! wrote:You can imagine having to die for refusing to convert to the worship of Muhammad. So who worships Muhammad?? Who even prays to Muhammad?? Why in God's name would anyone pray to a man who ate, slept, and took a dump just like themselves?? Muslims only worship the creator of the heavens and earth.. the creator of all that is seen and unseen! Did I get that right, ama is someone comparing Muhammad to themselves. Muhammad was flesh and bones like you and me... Not worthy of worship! Or is it that you think Jesus never used to take dumps after eating!? shida yako is bringing in Jesus in all your discussions - anyway, I might be wrong, I can't read your mind but I just thought your reference was a bit dis respectful especially directed towards such an important individual in history. When did it become disrespectful to take a dump?? Taking a dump is the one of the main human things to consider when choosing who to worship or not! God has never and will never take a dump! I am simply pointing out that I personally cannot worship anyone who has taken a dump before and that includes Muhammad or Jesus! Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@tycho Islam is a system. If you want to call it a set, it is up to you. You see Allah (Almighty God) the Creator of the universe Has set up a system how things relate to one another, system how the things relate to Allah. If the sustenance does not lead to a peaceful existence them that is not a complete system.
If a system does not give specific instruction on how to live, them who is supposed to come up with this instruction.
There is no null in the system called Islam. AlphDoti, when it comes to matters of truth it only matters that one should show to an other the truth by way of reason. And reason has its structure and form. That's how there can be reasonable conversation. In our case, it can be shown that 'set' and 'system' can not only be used interchangeably but are necessary for this conversation. Please also note that my use of 'nullity' is different from yours. I have mentioned it as the result of an interelation of systems. Otherwise, I believe you're not giving an adequate response. @tycho this truth is not scientific fact. It cannot be verified by scientific research or laboratory experiment. But we can analyze the system in specific terms, not by abstraction of nulls and undefined sets. Sets here are defined, 'null' seems to be a complex to you unfortunately, and reason must be demonstrated, not merely asserted. Let me give you an example; a court of law values truth, hence employs a method of reaching this truth. Same here. Except that now you're trying to dodge the matter. Then also this last post is inconsistent with your Muslim protestations like; 1. Mohammed the prophet was privy to scientific knowledge 2. That humans should be reasonable So far, you're going counter to these ideas that you've claimed to uphold. I'm asking you to come down to my level. Leave abstraction alone. And concerning your two points above: 1. Muahmmad (pbuh) was not privy to scientific knowledge. I don't say that the prophet was a scientist. Don't take that the Quran is a science text book either. But the Quran mentions many scientific facts. And it mentions these facts long before they were discovered. 2. Yes, we should be reasonable. So let us talk reason now.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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Muriel wrote:Anyway, back to Koran and in hadithi found in Bukhari, did not Mohammed say he himself does not know what allah will do to him? 46:8,9. Did not Mohammed himself say to akina Manaf, Safiya and Fatima that he, mohammed, cannot save them from Allah's punishment?
Over to you. Now who has said Muhammad will save us from anything?? Everyone will be pleading to be saved from the Hellfire on judgement day! Muhammad will prostrate in front of God begging him to save his followers but the choice to actually save remains with Allah! How then is he equal to Allah?? No partnership there... no saving there... All I see Muhammad doing is a whole lot of begging like a proper servant should! But then again I'm talking to someone who believes that a man who said he was a servant to the father is actually equal to the father!  Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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guru267 wrote:Muriel wrote:Anyway, back to Koran and in hadithi found in Bukhari, did not Mohammed say he himself does not know what allah will do to him? 46:8,9. Did not Mohammed himself say to akina Manaf, Safiya and Fatima that he, mohammed, cannot save them from Allah's punishment?
Over to you. Now who has said Muhammad will save us from anything?? Everyone will be pleading to be saved from the Hellfire on judgement day! Muhammad will prostrate in front of God begging him to save his followers but the choice to actually save remains with Allah! How then is he equal to Allah?? No partnership there... no saving there... All I see Muhammad doing is a whole lot of begging like a proper servant should! But then again I'm talking to someone who believes that a man who said he was a servant to the father is actually equal to the father! @muriel, the above is correct. On that DAY, all the prophets will be there, including Jesus Christ (pbuh). They will be like witness in front of Allah. And surely, the prophet will cry saying "Ya! Allah! Ya! Ummat! My followers!". And who are his followers? All of us who were born after his message until the end of world. You included.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/19/2009 Posts: 3,142
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AlphDoti wrote:guru267 wrote:Muriel wrote:Anyway, back to Koran and in hadithi found in Bukhari, did not Mohammed say he himself does not know what allah will do to him? 46:8,9. Did not Mohammed himself say to akina Manaf, Safiya and Fatima that he, mohammed, cannot save them from Allah's punishment?
Over to you. Now who has said Muhammad will save us from anything?? Everyone will be pleading to be saved from the Hellfire on judgement day! Muhammad will prostrate in front of God begging him to save his followers but the choice to actually save remains with Allah! How then is he equal to Allah?? No partnership there... no saving there... All I see Muhammad doing is a whole lot of begging like a proper servant should! But then again I'm talking to someone who believes that a man who said he was a servant to the father is actually equal to the father! @muriel, the above is correct. On that DAY, all the prophets will be there, including Jesus Christ (pbuh). They will be like witness in front of Allah. And surely, the prophet will cry saying "Ya! Allah! Ya! Ummat! My followers!". And who are his followers? All of us who were born after his message until the end of world. You included. Whatever it is, a lawyer is needed when the time for reckoning comes. That is the bottom line. The only line. Yaani, do I have to work this hard to bring out these concessions? I will if I must. Its my bounden duty. After railing against other people for believing on the idea of a lawyer, an advocate, all of a sudden we agree unanimously that we also needs one! We discover these truths in our very own koran and the hadithis seem to agree. But, despite the egg still on our face we are still twisting and turning as I can see. While at it, bear in mind you have not reconciled other contradictions. If you guys were christians, I would tell you now is the time for bible and bible only, but for you I would tell you koran and hadiths only. No personal conjencture. Oh, I appreciate the extinguished grandiose. Mulianza na mioto ,,,,,,,,,
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:tycho wrote:AlphDoti wrote:@tycho Islam is a system. If you want to call it a set, it is up to you. You see Allah (Almighty God) the Creator of the universe Has set up a system how things relate to one another, system how the things relate to Allah. If the sustenance does not lead to a peaceful existence them that is not a complete system.
If a system does not give specific instruction on how to live, them who is supposed to come up with this instruction.
There is no null in the system called Islam. AlphDoti, when it comes to matters of truth it only matters that one should show to an other the truth by way of reason. And reason has its structure and form. That's how there can be reasonable conversation. In our case, it can be shown that 'set' and 'system' can not only be used interchangeably but are necessary for this conversation. Please also note that my use of 'nullity' is different from yours. I have mentioned it as the result of an interelation of systems. Otherwise, I believe you're not giving an adequate response. @tycho this truth is not scientific fact. It cannot be verified by scientific research or laboratory experiment. But we can analyze the system in specific terms, not by abstraction of nulls and undefined sets. Sets here are defined, 'null' seems to be a complex to you unfortunately, and reason must be demonstrated, not merely asserted. Let me give you an example; a court of law values truth, hence employs a method of reaching this truth. Same here. Except that now you're trying to dodge the matter. Then also this last post is inconsistent with your Muslim protestations like; 1. Mohammed the prophet was privy to scientific knowledge 2. That humans should be reasonable So far, you're going counter to these ideas that you've claimed to uphold. I'm asking you to come down to my level. Leave abstraction alone. And concerning your two points above: 1. Muahmmad (pbuh) was not privy to scientific knowledge. I don't say that the prophet was a scientist. Don't take that the Quran is a science text book either. But the Quran mentions many scientific facts. And it mentions these facts long before they were discovered. 2. Yes, we should be reasonable. So let us talk reason now. AlphDoti, 'abstaction' is relevant in this case. Why? Without it Man wouldn't be able to reason. But perhaps to enhance our conversation I will ask you to kindly show me what I have 'abstracted' then I can clarify my objective.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Muriel wrote:AlphDoti wrote:guru267 wrote:Muriel wrote:Anyway, back to Koran and in hadithi found in Bukhari, did not Mohammed say he himself does not know what allah will do to him? 46:8,9. Did not Mohammed himself say to akina Manaf, Safiya and Fatima that he, mohammed, cannot save them from Allah's punishment?
Over to you. Now who has said Muhammad will save us from anything?? Everyone will be pleading to be saved from the Hellfire on judgement day! Muhammad will prostrate in front of God begging him to save his followers but the choice to actually save remains with Allah! How then is he equal to Allah?? No partnership there... no saving there... All I see Muhammad doing is a whole lot of begging like a proper servant should! But then again I'm talking to someone who believes that a man who said he was a servant to the father is actually equal to the father! @muriel, the above is correct. On that DAY, all the prophets will be there, including Jesus Christ (pbuh). They will be like witness in front of Allah. And surely, the prophet will cry saying "Ya! Allah! Ya! Ummat! My followers!". And who are his followers? All of us who were born after his message until the end of world. You included. Whatever it is, a lawyer is needed when the time for reckoning comes. That is the bottom line. The only line. Yaani, do I have to work this hard to bring out these concessions? I will if I must. Its my bounden duty. After railing against other people for believing on the idea of a lawyer, an advocate, all of a sudden we agree unanimously that we also needs one! We discover these truths in our very own koran and the hadithis seem to agree. But, despite the egg still on our face we are still twisting and turning as I can see. While at it, bear in mind you have not reconciled other contradictions. If you guys were christians, I would tell you now is the time for bible and bible only, but for you I would tell you koran and hadiths only. No personal conjencture. Oh, I appreciate the extinguished grandiose. Mulianza na mioto ,,,,,,,,, @muriel, please we don't agree in the sense that you have in Christianity. Read my post properly. You see the Quran insists in many, many places that 'wasila' is haram. One place it says: "...to whom Allah will give permission on the day of judgement."Therefore, we make dua asking Allah to make the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to intercede on the day of Judgement. In this world, if you have to ask for help, ask to Allah directly, ultimate help. Allah says in sura Fatiha chapter 1:5: " Thee alone do we worship, and Thine alone aid we seek." Sura chapter 40:60: " And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (Prayer)" This is direct! Why do you require someone intermediary? Why? For example, supposed your mother has a heart problem (God save us from earthly problems). And you know number one heart specialist is in India. And this specialist says anyone who comes to me directly I'll give free treatment. Will you go to second best? Answer is no. Number is there why do you go for second best? So Allah is there, he can here a thousand people speaking at the same time, a million people.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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Wow, one can actually get a headache from all this bashing and counter-bashing or confusion in trying to understand Islam and Christianity. But it doesn't make sense. There are many striking similarities between these two religions, many beliefs. Many prophets of old are mentioned in the two books. Jesus is considered the greatest prophet by Muslims and the Messiah by Christians, there's belief in Adam, Moses, Abraham, Noah, the virgin birth...we could go on and on. So why do some followers of these two religions hate each other that much, when, in actual sense they believe in the same God!? When the Bible and the Quran are similar in many teachings? Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Muriel wrote:...Whatever it is, a lawyer is needed when the time for reckoning comes. That is the bottom line. The only line.... But of course some people will argue that when you go to a court of law, you require a lawyer! And they say similarly, when you go to Allah, our lawyer is Prophet or whatever it is. Then we say fine, when you go to a court of law, the judge does not know who is the murderer. That is why he requires a lawyer. Do you think Allah does not know? Allah is a Al-ALIM, all Knower. Why do you need to interpret? Why are you belittling Allah? He does not require any intermediary. Just directly. Allah is not like you and me. He can hear all the people at once. Therefore, you have to ask directly.
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