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July deadline for ban on cash for bus fare
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#41 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:27:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
It's impractical if you consider adoption costs,unnecessary transaction costs and time constraints.I don't see it helping with corruption.For me it's taxes and transport statistics which also brings up security/privacy concerns.
murchr
#42 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:33:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
alma wrote:
murchr lets tell Kenyans the truth shall we.

There are only 3 ways that the matatu guys know about

1. bebapay
2. lipa na mpesa

Do you have another way? Please advice on this thread. Even I would like to know

This is like the gov't coming up with a law that says, ALL kenyans must use Mash Poa, because they have never had an accident.

Sure its a good way to help matatu owners, but don't you think that they should concentrate on hiring honest employees? Who told them that now they will not be stolen from.

It like now saying that you won't die from a bus accident since you pay with Bebapay or only travel during the night.

I know i've confused you. But honestly, you can't force me to use a private companies mode of payments. It's illegal and this law will go nowhere.

The way to make people use digital is to ensure that there are policies that support that. Not telling people that Jesus is coming on 24th July so you must all throw away your tungotores and use bebapay. That is silly to be honest.


Being that there are two ways that u know doesnt mean that those are the only ways and there can never be another way. People come up with ideas daily.

Secondly, I haven't come across anyone whose forehead is written "Honest" so a business man will jump into every if not any opportunity that they perceive would be profitable to them. To them, they are thinking of how they will do away with that extra tout, honest or not.

Just a question, do u like having cash in your wallet? do u feel safe with it walking on Kirinyaga road? Most people I know would rather have Mpesa. Look at how those matatus that go to Nyeri Meru (Tea room) operate.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
alma
#43 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:40:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
murchr I will retire from this argument.

You have it in your head that I'm against a cashless society. I'm not

I'm against a society where the GOVERNMENT decides when I should spend cash and when I shouldn't. That's none of their business. Next they'll be telling you to stop using debit cards and instead start using credit cards.

There should be options for everyone to spend as they wish. Options for business people to choose their prefered business partners.

Not being forced to use equetee and safaricom and making it a law. You know no one else would be "licensed" unless they are chinese.

This is corruption and taxation rolled in one. Something that jubilee is becoming very adept at.

I will go retire and wait for the day when I'm forced as a citizen to use mpesa because njumbiree knows better and its good for me.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
murchr
#44 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 8:57:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
No gov has forced anyone to use any platform the regulations that have been set were formulated by the sector together with the gov. Safcom and Equity are just early birds catching worms. Those other laggards will complain later.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
maka
#45 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 9:00:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
No gov has forced anyone to use any platform the regulations that have been set were formulated by the sector together with the gov. Safcom and Equity are just early birds catching worms. Those other laggards will complain later.


Its wrong no matter how you look at it...where was the common mans input?
possunt quia posse videntur
Lolest!
#46 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 9:36:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/18/2011
Posts: 12,069
Location: Kianjokoma
This is interesting! Some diasporans in Britain must've lied to me that the economy there is largely cashless. That they only use cards. That it's used by intelligence guys to track people...@drunkard/rollout ako wapi? He once said mpesa sounds great to us here in dusty Africa because we use cash. According to him the yanks are cashless. I'm confused
Laughing out loudly smile Applause d'oh! Sad Drool Liar Shame on you Pray
maka
#47 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 9:45:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Lolest! wrote:
This is interesting! Some diasporans in Britain must've lied to me that the economy there is largely cashless. That they only use cards. That it's used by intelligence guys to track people...@drunkard/rollout ako wapi? He once said mpesa sounds great to us here in dusty Africa because we use cash. According to him the yanks are cashless. I'm confused


People pay cash bana ...
possunt quia posse videntur
alma
#48 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 9:47:19 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Lolest! wrote:
This is interesting! Some diasporans in Britain must've lied to me that the economy there is largely cashless. That they only use cards. That it's used by intelligence guys to track people...@drunkard/rollout ako wapi? He once said mpesa sounds great to us here in dusty Africa because we use cash. According to him the yanks are cashless. I'm confused


Largely cashless doesn't mean ban cash. Using cards doesn't mean creating a law that says never use cash. You would see riots in these so called digital countries.

This is an issue of the rights of a citizen to transact with what he has available and what he feels right for him.

If you ask me, digital Kenyans are just plain crazy. Why would you want anyone holding your information in one card just to prove that you are developed?

Gov't largess is when they want you to have cards for everything you do. Your ID to have all the information including your birthright, the property you own, girls you slept with etc.

What IT guys in Kenya don't understand is that this is already possible. But these "developed" citizens have refused gov't interference in their lives and will fight it.

No right thinking person would every allow gov't to be in control of ALL the information. I don't trust njumbiree as far as I can throw it. So now they will know what time I entered the bus to see my gashungwa in Meru?

Now we are starting with entering public buses with a technology that Google is still testing.

Hii ndio ubeberu mambo leo.

This country won't die if some of us, are allowed to use cash to enter buses.

But it shall surely die when we allow gov't to dictate how citizens spend their money and at what time and format.

The biggest lie to say that you thought that the rest of the world only uses cards. That's a big lie even the movie you watched last night proves that you're a liar.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
dunkang
#49 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 9:47:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
@murchr, i think you are not understanding @alma and my concerns. I personally do not oppose war against corruption or employees theft. No. All am worried about is the SUSPISCIOUS way that the GoK is involving itself in TOTALLY PRIVATE business affairs. Its suspect because whether i carry people for free or for a goat or for bonga points has nothing to do with the GoK. At night, whether you lock your house door or not, the GoK has no business in telling you what to do.

I fail to understand why you can't see this is a taxation plot or/and a ploy to formation of a 'law protected' CARTEL in the public transport sector locking out small investors. The tax am most worried about is VAT on fare.
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

kysse
#50 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 10:05:31 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/17/2013
Posts: 4,693
Location: Earth
Well,in that case I went digital long ago when began paying fare by mpesa 2 yrs ago.
Have always held the notion that,as long a there is no law on the acceptable mode of payment in public vehicle then any means of transaction is acceptable and refusal to accept my money by the crew should not be my wahala.
Never faced any opposition,some have let me travel free.



murchr
#51 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 10:23:36 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
dunkang wrote:
@murchr, i think you are not understanding @alma and my concerns. I personally do not oppose war against corruption or employees theft. No. All am worried about is the SUSPISCIOUS way that the GoK is involving itself in TOTALLY PRIVATE business affairs. Its suspect because whether i carry people for free or for a goat or for bonga points has nothing to do with the GoK. At night, whether you lock your house door or not, the GoK has no business in telling you what to do.

I fail to understand why you can't see this is a taxation plot or/and a ploy to formation of a 'law protected' CARTEL in the public transport sector locking out small investors. The tax am most worried about is VAT on fare.


Who lied to you that there can be any legitimate business without the involvement of government? Where on earth do businesses operate without government? Lazima kuwe na sheria. In Singapore there is a "ticket service payment regulation" which even dictates the amount that players can charge.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
alma
#52 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 10:24:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
kysse wrote:
Well,in that case I went digital long ago when began paying fare by mpesa 2 yrs ago.
Have always held the notion that,as long a there is no law on the acceptable mode of payment in public vehicle then any means of transaction is acceptable and refusal to accept my money by the crew should not be my wahala.
Never faced any opposition,some have let me travel free.






That's exactly what we are saying. You as a citizen cannot be seduced to accept one mode of payment over another because some gov't beauractrat doesn't like ndururus. If you wish to use mpesa, use mpesa. If i want to use cash, let me use cash.

If the gov't doesn't like cash, then they should remove them from circulation.

Failure to which this is a tax and a cartel being created with the blessings of gov't.

If cash is not good enough for matatus, how can it be good enough for anything. Especially when matatus are the worst in our community?

This thing will bring up more constitutional issues than njumbiree can deal with. From discrimination to forced monopolies to rights of citizens.

It stinks to high heaven.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
murchr
#53 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 10:25:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
maka wrote:
murchr wrote:
No gov has forced anyone to use any platform the regulations that have been set were formulated by the sector together with the gov. Safcom and Equity are just early birds catching worms. Those other laggards will complain later.


Its wrong no matter how you look at it...where was the common mans input?


Welcome to reality. Common man will accept and move on or buy his car
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
dunkang
#54 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 10:57:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
murchr wrote:
dunkang wrote:
@murchr, i think you are not understanding @alma and my concerns. I personally do not oppose war against corruption or employees theft. No. All am worried about is the SUSPISCIOUS way that the GoK is involving itself in TOTALLY PRIVATE business affairs. Its suspect because whether i carry people for free or for a goat or for bonga points has nothing to do with the GoK. At night, whether you lock your house door or not, the GoK has no business in telling you what to do.

I fail to understand why you can't see this is a taxation plot or/and a ploy to formation of a 'law protected' CARTEL in the public transport sector locking out small investors. The tax am most worried about is VAT on fare.


Who lied to you that there can be any legitimate business without the involvement of government? Where on earth do businesses operate without government? Lazima kuwe na sheria. In Singapore there is a "ticket service payment regulation" which even dictates the amount that players can charge.

What you are stating is TRUE. But, should the GoK be seen to be facilitating business activities or be seen as if its engaging in business activities.

The GoK must be made to understand that excessive controls, permits and licences leads to more corruption and bungling (formation of Cartels). Why should the GoK introduce such laws when there is clearly no need? Let the market force determine the future path. The GoK must not be allowed to create artificial barriers and licences which are undemocratic in nature.

The GoK should facilitate business but not be seen to be engaging in business, as far as possible, or create barriers and bottlenecks.
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

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#55 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 10:59:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2013
Posts: 2,552
If this is what digital means they should tell us what the agenda is so that we accept earlier on.We've heard of Kenyan's encountering problems acquiring IDs and I'd assume these systems(m-pesa or bebapay) would rely on IDs.We've also heard of police using m-pesa to service their bribes through proxies with m-pesa.Let's not lie to ourselves,corruption is a quota to be filled which goes up the ladder.

What is faster,convenient and cheaper,removing a note or coin(s) from your pocket or waiting to see if a system somewhere is working?A ban is a strong move which makes it look like using cash is a crime.There's no way to spin this to the 'common' man or the digizens.These policies don't reflect 'democratic' ideals of dialogue,particapation and consideration.
mkenyan
#56 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 11:01:13 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,883
murchr wrote:
maka wrote:
murchr wrote:
No gov has forced anyone to use any platform the regulations that have been set were formulated by the sector together with the gov. Safcom and Equity are just early birds catching worms. Those other laggards will complain later.


Its wrong no matter how you look at it...where was the common mans input?


Welcome to reality. Common man will accept and move on or buy his car

ironically it is you who should be welcome to the reality of the post 2010 constitution kenya.
tycho
#57 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 11:20:43 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
No gov has forced anyone to use any platform the regulations that have been set were formulated by the sector together with the gov. Safcom and Equity are just early birds catching worms. Those other laggards will complain later.


It's difficult to identify 'laggards', and it's equally difficult to have a restrictive market where 'laggards complain later'.

A digital world needs and perhaps must be open, and free for all. If the government appears to favor some market players over others then even the favored must fail to reap the the biggest rewards in a digital and cyber world, the continuous increase in productivity per capita. Why? Because in a traditionally competitive world, an organization will prefer monopoly. But monopoly in a market where information is ubiquitous and ideas innumerable and vast systems of networks create events, is doomed to failure.

'Collaboration' is the key word if there's to be any movement to a 'digital' world. And growth of a digital system entails the planting of the right seeds.

For example, let's take the question you asked: 'What's the value of cash transactions in a matatu?' A friend needs to go to town. But he's a hustler, and though he has fought hard and bought a phone, he has no money on his digital account. Can I afford to give him fifty shillings via m-pesa? The value of a cash transaction becomes the social cost plus the transfer charge.

Not unless every event has high present value and is registered monetarily, meaning there are no pure consumers, then one will always prefer cash to 'digital'. So the way to go for the government, if they want a fully digital society is to encourage a cultural shift to 'prosumption' combination of production and consumption taking place at the same time to all citizens. This implies massive structural and functional changes in government and society as a whole. Therefore the other seed is restructuring government to prosumption and universal collaboration.

A cashless society won't need a public transport system. The technology involved is enough to allow teleporting, and a host of other technologies that an 'analogue government can't even afford to tax. So clearly the government is sabotaging itself by coming up with such regulations.





tycho
#58 Posted : Saturday, January 04, 2014 11:23:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
del
kysse
#59 Posted : Sunday, January 05, 2014 12:15:57 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/17/2013
Posts: 4,693
Location: Earth
dunkang wrote:
The tax am most worried about is VAT on fare.


We are still reeling from the effects of 12% nssf cut.
some laws can turn good citizens into beasts and my humble plea to these guys is this.'come srowry'.
washiku
#60 Posted : Sunday, January 05, 2014 12:26:47 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/9/2007
Posts: 13,095
I think one challenge we face as a country is that almost all our policy programmes are structured in a 'punitive' version effect of which they automatically end up facing resistance. The society will always tend to rebel against the govt. Someone somewhere will always look for a loophole that can be utilised to keep off the govt. Maybe we ought to have a total shift in the thinking by coming up with policies that are attractive towards a desired end than one that punishes people towards a desired end. Eg many people today welcomes Mpesa as a means of payment, not because there was a deadline for people to register but coz the benefits of having it are more compared to not having it. Actually nobody forces you to go for it, rather it attracts you to it.

Coming back to transport, if govt could offer certain incentives to transport companies that shall be organised in a certain way and that offers the customers certain desirable service levels, its easier to attract passengers to that particular company, leading to other companies following suite n with time forces of market will force all serious investors in the sector to shape up.

Govt could even go further n invest in very well managed buses that offers high quality services, charges certain desirable amounts n payments done in certain desired methods. If passengers start preferring the govt vehicles to the private ones, you will start seeing private ones now offering even better services to keep the customers to themselves.

This transport industry is worth about KES 200billions thus should attract very serious levels of thinking if the right environment is created.
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