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Average cost of standard railway gauge from Mombasa to Malaba!
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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They can only compete with themselves...man eaters notwithstanding! Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 8/23/2013 Posts: 34
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sparkly wrote:timbosho wrote:why is it not shameful for us to go to china and other countries for grants and aid after 50 years of independence? do we not have brains/skills equal to the ones the donor countries have? when will we stand up and make something worthwhile for ourselves? you end up with nothing urself when you are always asking asking and never doing anything for yourself. Getting loans and grants from a foreign country, nothing untoward. It is actually the norm in financing public projects. The Govt does not have a job and does not engage in enterprise. The Gov will therefore raise money by taxing business or by borrowing internally or externally. In the case of Kenya KShs 500B is alot of money to borrow at once from the local economy. It will cause disruption in the local banking sector. There will be left with no money to lend to private sector leading to higher interest rates. Local credit is also expensive. Bond rates are >10% whereas overseas the rates are <1% in some countries. Lender bears the risk of default. It is not easy to get a loan of KShs 500B payable in 20 or more years from a private bank. A state backed development bank like EXIM can easily assume the risk esp where the loan is sovereign secured. For the reasons above it is makes sense to borrow from overseas to finance huge capital expenses. The loans will be repaid with revenue from the railway, port, pipeline etc. Did you know that the Chinese are the financiers of the US Treasury? These are all good points. They lead to more questions like why is local credit expensive? Why would foreign credit be cheaper than local credit? Why are local economic conditions leading to such high interest rates? There is no major issue with borrowing capital from abroad if it is used efficiently. Concern is we will get a railway, but it will be built, maintained and probably operated by the Chinese. There will be no capacity or knowledge transferred to Kenya(ns). If we want to build another railway line from Nairobi to Namanga or to South Sudan, we will be unable to using domestic knowhow/capacity, we will need another loan/grant/Chinese-like project. Chinese are technically the financiers of the US treasury, but they do not build for the US roads, ports, railway lines. I do not see what is wrong in wanting these mega-projects to be carried out by Kenyans, even when using foreign capital to finance them. Does it mean Kenyans cannot carry out these projects or cannot learn to carry them out?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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timbosho wrote:sparkly wrote:timbosho wrote:why is it not shameful for us to go to china and other countries for grants and aid after 50 years of independence? do we not have brains/skills equal to the ones the donor countries have? when will we stand up and make something worthwhile for ourselves? you end up with nothing urself when you are always asking asking and never doing anything for yourself. Getting loans and grants from a foreign country, nothing untoward. It is actually the norm in financing public projects. The Govt does not have a job and does not engage in enterprise. The Gov will therefore raise money by taxing business or by borrowing internally or externally. In the case of Kenya KShs 500B is alot of money to borrow at once from the local economy. It will cause disruption in the local banking sector. There will be left with no money to lend to private sector leading to higher interest rates. Local credit is also expensive. Bond rates are >10% whereas overseas the rates are <1% in some countries. Lender bears the risk of default. It is not easy to get a loan of KShs 500B payable in 20 or more years from a private bank. A state backed development bank like EXIM can easily assume the risk esp where the loan is sovereign secured. For the reasons above it is makes sense to borrow from overseas to finance huge capital expenses. The loans will be repaid with revenue from the railway, port, pipeline etc. Did you know that the Chinese are the financiers of the US Treasury? These are all good points. They lead to more questions like why is local credit expensive? Why would foreign credit be cheaper than local credit? Why are local economic conditions leading to such high interest rates? There is no major issue with borrowing capital from abroad if it is used efficiently. Concern is we will get a railway, but it will be built, maintained and probably operated by the Chinese. There will be no capacity or knowledge transferred to Kenya(ns). If we want to build another railway line from Nairobi to Namanga or to South Sudan, we will be unable to using domestic knowhow/capacity, we will need another loan/grant/Chinese-like project. Chinese are technically the financiers of the US treasury, but they do not build for the US roads, ports, railway lines. I do not see what is wrong in wanting these mega-projects to be carried out by Kenyans, even when using foreign capital to finance them. Does it mean Kenyans cannot carry out these projects or cannot learn to carry them out? eeeh because we lack the capacity..... "There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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timbosho wrote:sparkly wrote:timbosho wrote:why is it not shameful for us to go to china and other countries for grants and aid after 50 years of independence? do we not have brains/skills equal to the ones the donor countries have? when will we stand up and make something worthwhile for ourselves? you end up with nothing urself when you are always asking asking and never doing anything for yourself. Getting loans and grants from a foreign country, nothing untoward. It is actually the norm in financing public projects. The Govt does not have a job and does not engage in enterprise. The Gov will therefore raise money by taxing business or by borrowing internally or externally. In the case of Kenya KShs 500B is alot of money to borrow at once from the local economy. It will cause disruption in the local banking sector. There will be left with no money to lend to private sector leading to higher interest rates. Local credit is also expensive. Bond rates are >10% whereas overseas the rates are <1% in some countries. Lender bears the risk of default. It is not easy to get a loan of KShs 500B payable in 20 or more years from a private bank. A state backed development bank like EXIM can easily assume the risk esp where the loan is sovereign secured. For the reasons above it is makes sense to borrow from overseas to finance huge capital expenses. The loans will be repaid with revenue from the railway, port, pipeline etc. Did you know that the Chinese are the financiers of the US Treasury? These are all good points. They lead to more questions like why is local credit expensive? Why would foreign credit be cheaper than local credit? Why are local economic conditions leading to such high interest rates? There is no major issue with borrowing capital from abroad if it is used efficiently. Concern is we will get a railway, but it will be built, maintained and probably operated by the Chinese. There will be no capacity or knowledge transferred to Kenya(ns). If we want to build another railway line from Nairobi to Namanga or to South Sudan, we will be unable to using domestic knowhow/capacity, we will need another loan/grant/Chinese-like project. Chinese are technically the financiers of the US treasury, but they do not build for the US roads, ports, railway lines. I do not see what is wrong in wanting these mega-projects to be carried out by Kenyans, even when using foreign capital to finance them. Does it mean Kenyans cannot carry out these projects or cannot learn to carry them out? @Timbosho, very good concerns. Lets start with the idea of technical capacity availability in the local scenario: 1. Most of our engineers are employed by multi nationals as sales, consultants etc and are mostly office based. The men and women to do the spanner works (mind you complex projects) are few and far apart. 2. The government procurement system is so ring fenced to favour foreign companies (crafted by Bretton woods institutions- in an attempt to keep of corruption cartels). Thus we may end up in the same hole. 3. Whatever, few "local" firms with a remote capacity to rival the foreign ones are actually foreign and not local. 3. BTW why do we train so few engineers? To keep the marketability high? by having the supply so low? India and China churn out millions of engineers without regard to their employability. This should be copied and pasted here bila shame. Either way we end up losers.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 3/26/2012 Posts: 1,182
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timbosho wrote: These are all good points. They lead to more questions like why is local credit expensive? Why would foreign credit be cheaper than local credit? Why are local economic conditions leading to such high interest rates? There is no major issue with borrowing capital from abroad if it is used efficiently. Concern is we will get a railway, but it will be built, maintained and probably operated by the Chinese. There will be no capacity or knowledge transferred to Kenya(ns). If we want to build another railway line from Nairobi to Namanga or to South Sudan, we will be unable to using domestic knowhow/capacity, we will need another loan/grant/Chinese-like project. Chinese are technically the financiers of the US treasury, but they do not build for the US roads, ports, railway lines. I do not see what is wrong in wanting these mega-projects to be carried out by Kenyans, even when using foreign capital to finance them. Does it mean Kenyans cannot carry out these projects or cannot learn to carry them out?
@timbosho, I don't know where you live, but where i stand, all local contractors just rape us. Local contractors have been building roads for decades until the Chinese came over,how many roads can your quote for good workmanship? They take long and do a very shoddy job and nobody can touch them. We cannot be rewarding IMPUNITY in the name of nationalism. May the best-performing contractor ALWAYS win the damn tenders. To hell with the local contractors,they should be rotting in jail never to be seen on Kenyan roads.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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@ Timbosho, We do not have capacity since building capacity for this type of work is not a priority for the State right now. In the developed world where this capacity exists, capacity building is largely driven by the private sector and market forces – the government is only the lubricant. Those governments have huge cash at disposal to handle mega state projects and it is easy to attract foreign based experts to immigrate to those countries and even seek citizenship. Not many foreign experts would be willing to seek employment / immigrate to Kenya to handle just one such project, unless they are part of contracting company.
But I know what you are thinking. That the Steel will come from China. That most of the skilled labour and maybe 50% unskilled labour will come from China. That of the 500b, the only cash that will remain in circulation here is the food the Chinese will eat and other consumables. That from the revenue generated by the new SGR, we will re-pay all of the borrowed cash to China. You are also asking how long it will take to generate the 500b in revenue, repay with interest and start earning real profit from this investment. All these are valid questions.
However, the reality is that we do not have resources (material and human) to do this work. Other than China, there is probably no other country in the world that has large state supported construction companies and banks that can offer the kind of support China has offered in the manner it has been done. The best that the West would have done is give a small loan from World Bank – may be a tenth of the cost (using money borrowed from China), ask Kenya to source for the rest, then issue international tender – which would still be won by Chinese contractor. So really we do not have a better option. If you don’t like China and opt to retain status quo, consider the negative effect of continuing to use road transport / lunatic, losing more business to other countries. Under all these circumstances, working with China is a valid and viable investment in the long run. The only thing I find wanting is that the Chinese contractor was allowed to do feasibility study, cost estimates, design and ultimate construction. I also do not think it should cost 0.5b to build a Kilometer of SWG. These concerns have been raised in mainstream media and I hope someone will be made to provide answers at some point.
However, in the final analysis, what we need as a country is to find out where we can take advantage in the global business arena. The first step is to bring down cost of production and improve our global competitiveness – perhaps aim to be at par with Egypt and SA to begin with. We have started with focus on improving transport infrastructure and energy, and this is a step in the right direction.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/30/2008 Posts: 6,029
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mkeiyd wrote:timbosho wrote: These are all good points. They lead to more questions like why is local credit expensive? Why would foreign credit be cheaper than local credit? Why are local economic conditions leading to such high interest rates? There is no major issue with borrowing capital from abroad if it is used efficiently. Concern is we will get a railway, but it will be built, maintained and probably operated by the Chinese. There will be no capacity or knowledge transferred to Kenya(ns). If we want to build another railway line from Nairobi to Namanga or to South Sudan, we will be unable to using domestic knowhow/capacity, we will need another loan/grant/Chinese-like project. Chinese are technically the financiers of the US treasury, but they do not build for the US roads, ports, railway lines. I do not see what is wrong in wanting these mega-projects to be carried out by Kenyans, even when using foreign capital to finance them. Does it mean Kenyans cannot carry out these projects or cannot learn to carry them out?
@timbosho, I don't know where you live, but where i stand, all local contractors just rape us. Local contractors have been building roads for decades until the Chinese came over,how many roads can your quote for good workmanship? They take long and do a very shoddy job and nobody can touch them. We cannot be rewarding IMPUNITY in the name of nationalism. May the best-performing contractor ALWAYS win the damn tenders. To hell with the local contractors,they should be rotting in jail never to be seen on Kenyan roads. Why hate on local contractors?Cant you see the Chinese created Lake Kibaki on the so called Superhighway?
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/13/2006 Posts: 70
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Impunity wrote:Allank wrote:GGK wrote:Impunity wrote:GGK wrote: As for mode of operation, the current is locomotive (where the engines pulls all the load from the front). What is proposed is different..... diesel-electric multiple unit (DEMU) where a diesel engine drives an electrical generator or an alternator which produces electrical energy. The generated current is then fed to electric traction motors on the wheels or bogies. this produces trains that gain speed faster and stops fasters
Where is this diesel engine located? Is it located at the front of the whole train or located within selected wagons/coaches? I guess the engines are distributed DMU engines are smaller and several are used on a train, depending on the configuration. The diesel engine is often mounted under the car floor and on its side because of the restricted space available. Vibration being transmitted into the passenger saloon has always been a problem but some of the newer designs are very good in this respect. Diesel-electric locomotives come in three varieties, according to the period in which they were designed. These three are: DC - DC (DC generator supplying DC traction motors); AC - DC (AC alternator output rectified to supply DC motors) and AC - DC - AC (AC alternator output rectified to DC and then inverted to 3-phase AC for the traction motors). The DC - DC type has a generator supplying the DC traction motors through a resistance control system, the AC - DC type has an alternator producing AC current which is rectified to DC and then supplied to the DC traction motors and, finally, the most modern has the AC alternator output being rectified to DC and then converted to AC (3-phase) so that it can power the 3-phase AC traction motors. Although this last system might seem the most complex, the gains from using AC motors far outweigh the apparent complexity of the system. In reality, most of the equipment uses solid state power electronics with microprocessor-based controls. Exactment...DC-DC are nowadays rare! Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners? Kama kuoga ni usafi taulo lachafukani?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Impunity wrote:Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. There was tender floated recently by KRC for design review and construction supervision of the same why didn’t you buy? Otherwise why do you think your advice is important / needed?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. There was tender floated recently by KRC for design review and construction supervision of the same why didn’t you buy? Otherwise why do you think your advice is important / needed? I know much about the Railway thing and Railway is in my heart! I dont want this project to stall or fail. Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/2/2011 Posts: 4,818 Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
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Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. There was tender floated recently by KRC for design review and construction supervision of the same why didn’t you buy? Otherwise why do you think your advice is important / needed? I know much about the Railway thing and Railway is in my heart! I dont want this project to stall or fail. The first CORDashian who atleast wants Kenya to develop during this JUBILEE 20 years reign! Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. There was tender floated recently by KRC for design review and construction supervision of the same why didn’t you buy? Otherwise why do you think your advice is important / needed? I know much about the Railway thing and Railway is in my heart! I dont want this project to stall or fail. Ok will take that as a joke…
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,328 Location: Masada
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dunkang wrote:Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. There was tender floated recently by KRC for design review and construction supervision of the same why didn’t you buy? Otherwise why do you think your advice is important / needed? I know much about the Railway thing and Railway is in my heart! I dont want this project to stall or fail. The first CORDashian who atleast wants Kenya to develop during this JUBILEE 20 years reign! I dont see it as a Cordeshian/Jubree thing...Railway is bigger than Uhunye and RAO. Portfolio: Sold You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/20/2012 Posts: 888
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Impunity wrote:dunkang wrote:Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:Allank wrote: Agreed! very rare only in kenya do we still operate the lunatic 600VLTS!!! DC-DC but all is not lost,see http://www.emdiesels.com/emdweb/products/jt56ace.jsp for what to expect from china!!! The JT56ACe can pull upto 5000 tones @120kph assuming a 20ft container is 22tones thats approximatesly 230 containers at a GO! or if you wish 115 trucks!! at this rate the NEW BERTH @KPA will be of no use...but again when did leaders of this great nation become better planners?
I really want to be an Amicus Curiae in this new rail project, how can I get the nod of the powers that be? Must I know the person who knows another person up there for me to be considered? I will give my advice for free, but I want to be doing so in a round table not just sending emails which some vultures may lay claim on. There was tender floated recently by KRC for design review and construction supervision of the same why didn’t you buy? Otherwise why do you think your advice is important / needed? I know much about the Railway thing and Railway is in my heart! I dont want this project to stall or fail. The first CORDashian who atleast wants Kenya to develop during this JUBILEE 20 years reign! I dont see it as a Cordeshian/Jubree thing...Railway is bigger than Uhunye and RAO. Well said...
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/6/2010 Posts: 242
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The business daily reports the finance for the project was advanced at 4.1 per cent and the government negotiated for a grace period of 10 years after which the repayment will be spread over 30 to 40 years. http://www.businessdaily.../-/13ec8ta/-/index.html
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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josimar wrote:The business daily reports the finance for the project was advanced at 4.1 per cent and the government negotiated for a grace period of 10 years after which the repayment will be spread over 30 to 40 years. http://www.businessdaily.../-/13ec8ta/-/index.html
Can Mukiha / a Wazuan well versed with economics theory do a cost-benefit analysis for this project? Notes: 1. Assume 75% of the money advanced will go back to circulate in Chinese economy since all materials will be sourced from China, as well as 75% of the workers. 2. Assume Kenya will pay 17b*40 (680b) to China over a period of 40 years. 4. Assume 50% of all cargo destined for hinterland is transported via SGR 5. Assume project is to be funded by the 1.5% import duty newly levied on all imported goods 6. Assume the economic life of the railway is 100 years. Waiting….
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/26/2012 Posts: 15,980
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http://www.businessdaily...6/-/7i4bjcz/-/index.html"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore .
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/13/2011 Posts: 5,964
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murchr wrote:http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Treasury-collects-Sh5bn-railway-tax-in-three-months/-/539552/2083446/-/7i4bjcz/-/index.html http://www.wantchinatime...&utm_campaign=Buffer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/10/2007 Posts: 1,587
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limanika wrote:josimar wrote:The business daily reports the finance for the project was advanced at 4.1 per cent and the government negotiated for a grace period of 10 years after which the repayment will be spread over 30 to 40 years. http://www.businessdaily.../-/13ec8ta/-/index.html
Can Mukiha / a Wazuan well versed with economics theory do a cost-benefit analysis for this project? Notes: 1. Assume 75% of the money advanced will go back to circulate in Chinese economy since all materials will be sourced from China, as well as 75% of the workers. 2. Assume Kenya will pay 17b*40 (680b) to China over a period of 40 years. 4. Assume 50% of all cargo destined for hinterland is transported via SGR 5. Assume project is to be funded by the 1.5% import duty newly levied on all imported goods 6. Assume the economic life of the railway is 100 years. Waiting…. We can re-look at the estimates. First, not all materials will be sourced from China. At the most pessimistic estimate, 50% of workers will be from China. I think with technological advances, we can have economic life of the railway being 100 years. Maybe 50 years.
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Average cost of standard railway gauge from Mombasa to Malaba!
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