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Housing Finance: HFCK a diamond in the rough
Aguytrying
#721 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:34:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2010
Posts: 5,040
Horton wrote:
Yep sorry. Egrish!!! Yep referring to HF

Me thinks eps should be 4bob so at 10-15pe prices should be 40-60bob come April. What u reckon?


of course its possible. but for best results hold for longer like 2 yrs and see the madness that my happen
The investor's chief problem - and even his worst enemy - is likely to be himself
the deal
#722 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 11:50:03 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
HF is fully valued at the current price

1. State of the loan book-NPL ratio way above sector average

2. Loan Loss Coverage-way below sector coverage.

3. Land Laws-Land or a house is no longer that attractive as collateral.

4. Real Estate Sector-returns from the sector are taking a knock...most likely to affect HF's loan book as people scale back on plans in the sector.

5. Margins...over reliance on interest income-margins to come under pressure from high cost of funds i.e MTN last year was at 13%.

Given the risks...A P/B Ratio of 1.22 is fair...last time HF traded on a sky high PE was bcos Equity Bank was talking of a bid.

FY13 PAT most likely to be up by 20-35%.
Horton
#723 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 12:38:39 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,558
Location: Nairobi
the deal wrote:
HF is fully valued at the current price

1. State of the loan book-NPL ratio way above sector average

2. Loan Loss Coverage-way below sector coverage.

3. Land Laws-Land or a house is no longer that attractive as collateral.

4. Real Estate Sector-returns from the sector are taking a knock...most likely to affect HF's loan book as people scale back on plans in the sector.

5. Margins...over reliance on interest income-margins to come under pressure from high cost of funds i.e MTN last year was at 13%.

Given the risks...A P/B Ratio of 1.22 is fair...last time HF traded on a sky high PE was bcos Equity Bank was talking of a bid.

FY13 PAT most likely to be up by 20-35%.



@ the deal where did u see that number 3 item?

also number 4, real estate sector is taking a knock? really? I was invited to an open day recently on lower kabete road and a house built on 0.35acres is at 110m off plan...they only have like 4 available....in the words of Gary Coleman....."what u talking about??"

What pricing model do you use? Because we are in agreement that eps should be 20% ishh above last year....nonetheless, eps of 4 give or take or forward pe of 6....even if u use current pe, its below 10, for a growth company!! show me another company that is trading pe below 10 that ticks most boxes.....even my DCF valuation shows that its undervalued

the deal
#724 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 1:34:55 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
Horton wrote:
the deal wrote:
HF is fully valued at the current price

1. State of the loan book-NPL ratio way above sector average

2. Loan Loss Coverage-way below sector coverage.

3. Land Laws-Land or a house is no longer that attractive as collateral.

4. Real Estate Sector-returns from the sector are taking a knock...most likely to affect HF's loan book as people scale back on plans in the sector.

5. Margins...over reliance on interest income-margins to come under pressure from high cost of funds i.e MTN last year was at 13%.

Given the risks...A P/B Ratio of 1.22 is fair...last time HF traded on a sky high PE was bcos Equity Bank was talking of a bid.

FY13 PAT most likely to be up by 20-35%.



@ the deal where did u see that number 3 item?

also number 4, real estate sector is taking a knock? really? I was invited to an open day recently on lower kabete road and a house built on 0.35acres is at 110m off plan...they only have like 4 available....in the words of Gary Coleman....."what u talking about??"

What pricing model do you use? Because we are in agreement that eps should be 20% ishh above last year....nonetheless, eps of 4 give or take or forward pe of 6....even if u use current pe, its below 10, for a growth company!! show me another company that is trading pe below 10 that ticks most boxes.....even my DCF valuation shows that its undervalued


Unfortunately I know what I'm talking about....

1. On 3 read the new land laws

2. On 4 check Hass Consult Property Index

3. @Deal was a buyer at Ksh13-Ksh15

4. HF deposits and loan book isnt growing at a faster pace than industry average..check Q3 2013 earnings...look at q/q balance sheet growth

5. Let Ireri increase loan loss coverage to 50%...lets see if there will be any growth in 2013.

6. Add a rights issue...HF will need to recapitalise in the next 3 years....

HF is no longer attractive as it was at Ksh12-15 last year...given the risks...

DTB...CFC...are all trading on single digit forward PE's...I think theyre better picks at current prices than HF.



VituVingiSana
#725 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 7:31:08 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,077
Location: Nairobi
Aguytrying wrote:
Horton wrote:
Yep sorry. Egrish!!! Yep referring to HF

Me thinks eps should be 4bob so at 10-15pe prices should be 40-60bob come April. What u reckon?


of course its possible. but for best results hold for longer like 2 yrs and see the madness that my happen
Currently, a 10 PER is pricey. Peers are trading at 7-9 forward PERs. A 15 PER only if there's news/rumor of a takeover!
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
Horton
#726 Posted : Sunday, November 03, 2013 8:15:55 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,558
Location: Nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Horton wrote:
Yep sorry. Egrish!!! Yep referring to HF

Me thinks eps should be 4bob so at 10-15pe prices should be 40-60bob come April. What u reckon?


of course its possible. but for best results hold for longer like 2 yrs and see the madness that my happen
Currently, a 10 PER is pricey. Peers are trading at 7-9 forward PERs. A 15 PER only if there's news/rumor of a takeover!



Currently pe is actually 6. Something. Eps fy 12 was 3.22
VituVingiSana
#727 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 1:10:56 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,077
Location: Nairobi
Horton wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
Aguytrying wrote:
Horton wrote:
Yep sorry. Egrish!!! Yep referring to HF

Me thinks eps should be 4bob so at 10-15pe prices should be 40-60bob come April. What u reckon?


of course its possible. but for best results hold for longer like 2 yrs and see the madness that my happen
Currently, a 10 PER is pricey. Peers are trading at 7-9 forward PERs. A 15 PER only if there's news/rumor of a takeover!

Currently pe is actually 6. Something. Eps fy 12 was 3.22
Your expectation of a 10 PER is high vs peers. 26/4 = 6.5 PER which is lower than 7-9 PER but not egregiously cheap vs others. There is core issues with HFCK not of their own making [and it suffered in the past] which is:

1) It cannot pass on substantially high(er) financing costs to customers who will otherwise default. Short-term borrowing vs long-term lending.
2) Land laws will kick in when folks default. Sales/recovery will slow down sales as well as increase costs of recovery like lawyer fees, etc.
3) Lending is concentrated in a single sector. Always riskier.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
guru267
#728 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 7:40:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
Its amazing to see the negativity towards housing finance as an investment more so from "seasoned" investors...
Just because you love CFC (@the deal) or you love DTB (@VVS)does not mean all objectivity is out the window..

Historical P/E for HF is around 15...

Historical P/E for the whole banking sector is around 12....

Historical P/B for HF is around 2...

Historical P/B of the whole sector is also around 2...

In what world is it impossible to return to those ratios at least for the whole sector??

Given that the new land laws are not retrospective and the so called NPL ratios are cooked at board meetings I still think HF is the best bet in the banking sector...

And not to forget that DIVIDEND YIELD is on fire in this current market!!!!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
VituVingiSana
#729 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 7:57:55 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,077
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
Its amazing to see the negativity towards housing finance as an investment more so from "seasoned" investors...
Just because you love CFC (@the deal) or you love DTB (@VVS)does not mean all objectivity is out the window..

Historical P/E for HF is around 15...

Historical P/E for the whole banking sector is around 12....

Historical P/B for HF is around 2...

Historical P/B of the whole sector is also around 2...

In what world is it impossible to return to those ratios at least for the whole sector??

Given that the new land laws are not retrospective and the so called NPL ratios are cooked at board meetings I still think HF is the best bet in the banking sector...

And not to forget that DIVIDEND YIELD is on fire in this current market!!!!

"Given that the new land laws are not retrospective" Well, if you say so then it must be so...
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
guru267
#730 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 8:37:23 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Its amazing to see the negativity towards housing finance as an investment more so from "seasoned" investors...
Just because you love CFC (@the deal) or you love DTB (@VVS)does not mean all objectivity is out the window..

Historical P/E for HF is around 15...

Historical P/E for the whole banking sector is around 12....

Historical P/B for HF is around 2...

Historical P/B of the whole sector is also around 2...

In what world is it impossible to return to those ratios at least for the whole sector??

Given that the new land laws are not retrospective and the so called NPL ratios are cooked at board meetings I still think HF is the best bet in the banking sector...

And not to forget that DIVIDEND YIELD is on fire in this current market!!!!

"Given that the new land laws are not retrospective" Well, if you say so then it must be so...


@VVS my source is directly from Caroline Kariuki who is CEO of The Mortgage Company after I had asked her how they would factor in the risk... Where is your source from about the retrospective laws... I'm always open to correction!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
VituVingiSana
#731 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 9:06:09 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,077
Location: Nairobi
guru267 wrote:
VituVingiSana wrote:
guru267 wrote:
Its amazing to see the negativity towards housing finance as an investment more so from "seasoned" investors...
Just because you love CFC (@the deal) or you love DTB (@VVS)does not mean all objectivity is out the window..

Historical P/E for HF is around 15...

Historical P/E for the whole banking sector is around 12....

Historical P/B for HF is around 2...

Historical P/B of the whole sector is also around 2...

In what world is it impossible to return to those ratios at least for the whole sector??

Given that the new land laws are not retrospective and the so called NPL ratios are cooked at board meetings I still think HF is the best bet in the banking sector...

And not to forget that DIVIDEND YIELD is on fire in this current market!!!!

"Given that the new land laws are not retrospective" Well, if you say so then it must be so...


@VVS my source is directly from Caroline Kariuki who is CEO of The Mortgage Company after I had asked her how they would factor in the risk... Where is your source from about the retrospective laws... I'm always open to correction!

Perhaps Caroline knows better than the folks at Coulson Harney. I do not.

http://www.coulsonharney...ot-of-the-new-land-laws

4.3. Charges over private land - mandatory provisions and retrospective effect

There are now new provisions on regulating charges over land. These provisions are mandatory and have retrospective effect, which means that they will apply to charges created before the new laws came into force.


Retrospective effect on ongoing sales by chargees - where a secured lender had initiated "any steps to foreclose a charge" before the enactment of the new laws, the borrower may apply to court for an injunction to stop the continuation of any such step. If such an injunction is issued, the lender may commence fresh proceedings under the new laws in order to exercise their statutory power of sale.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
guru267
#732 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 11:16:56 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:
Perhaps Caroline knows better than the folks at Coulson Harney. I do not.

http://www.coulsonharney...ot-of-the-new-land-laws

4.3. Charges over private land - mandatory provisions and retrospective effect

There are now new provisions on regulating charges over land. These provisions are mandatory and have retrospective effect, which means that they will apply to charges created before the new laws came into force.


Retrospective effect on ongoing sales by chargees - where a secured lender had initiated "any steps to foreclose a charge" before the enactment of the new laws, the borrower may apply to court for an injunction to stop the continuation of any such step. If such an injunction is issued, the lender may commence fresh proceedings under the new laws in order to exercise their statutory power of sale.


@VVS perhaps you didn't read the document too well Sad

HF looks pretty safe to me after what I read below.. smile

4.3. Charges over private land - mandatory provisions and retrospective effect

Enacting laws with a retrospective effect is unusual, particularly where the retrospective effect is likely to cause detriment. In our view, retrospective legislation that leads to any form of arbitrary expropriation of a right or interest in land may be challenged for being unconstitutional


(c) Spousal consent required for charge of land; charge may be void if no consent obtained

As discussed above, spousal consent will be required in order to validly charge any land held by a person who is married. If spousal consent is not obtained or if the borrower gives misleading information on the lenders inquiries regarding spousal consent, the charge will be deemed void at the option of the spouse or spouses whose consent was not obtained. This provision does not have retrospective effect.


Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
VituVingiSana
#733 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 11:57:03 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 1/3/2007
Posts: 18,077
Location: Nairobi
@guru - I read it. It has to be challenged in court all the way to the Constitutional Court. Takes some time. And if they rule against the banks? There is a chance. You never know with Kenyan courts. They are too busy fighting for perks than work.

I never referred to the the provision being retrospective as regards spousal consent. Nevertheless, there will be challenges from wives, concubines, mistresses and their kids.

Now go to: Retrospective effect on ongoing sales by chargees - where a secured lender had initiated "any steps to foreclose a charge" before the enactment of the new laws, the borrower may apply to court for an injunction to stop the continuation of any such step. If such an injunction is issued, the lender may commence fresh proceedings under the new laws in order to exercise their statutory power of sale.
Greedy when others are fearful. Very fearful when others are greedy - to paraphrase Warren Buffett
hisah
#734 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 12:07:55 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
VituVingiSana wrote:
@guru - I read it. It has to be challenged in court all the way to the Constitutional Court. Takes some time. And if they rule against the banks? There is a chance. You never know with Kenyan courts. They are too busy fighting for perks than work.

I never referred to the the provision being retrospective as regards spousal consent. Nevertheless, there will be challenges from wives, concubines, mistresses and their kids.

Now go to: Retrospective effect on ongoing sales by chargees - where a secured lender had initiated "any steps to foreclose a charge" before the enactment of the new laws, the borrower may apply to court for an injunction to stop the continuation of any such step. If such an injunction is issued, the lender may commence fresh proceedings under the new laws in order to exercise their statutory power of sale.

That part I've put in bold is as murky as it gets for the lender. If the lender happens to get a number of dishonest borrowers, those court battles will not be funny on the bottomline...
$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
muganda
#735 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 12:48:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
@VVS, this bond of HFCK is x3 the current market capitalization of the firm, interesting...

However, noting their coverage ratio has declined to 14.2% which remains below the 50.0% sector average, the money is needed.

VituVingiSana wrote:
A huge boost for HFCK but at what price?

http://www.reuters.com/a...d-idUSL5N0IM0EG20131101

Kenyan mortgage financier Housing Finance has secured approval to issue a 20 billion shillings ($234.33 million) corporate bond, the market regulator said on Friday.

mkonomtupu
#736 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 2:40:21 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 2/10/2010
Posts: 1,001
Location: River Road
guru267 wrote:
Its amazing to see the negativity towards housing finance as an investment more so from "seasoned" investors...
Just because you love CFC (@the deal) or you love DTB (@VVS)does not mean all objectivity is out the window..

Given that the new land laws are not retrospective and the so called NPL ratios are cooked at board meetings I still think HF is the best bet in the banking sector...

And not to forget that DIVIDEND YIELD is on fire in this current market!!!!


@guru267, you seem to have a liking for real estate investments with Home Afrika then Housing finance...Mr. Market is negative on real estate there is some element of risk in defaults and overvaluation
Horton
#737 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 5:15:26 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,558
Location: Nairobi
All businesses have their flaws and their strengths.
I reckon HF is my next big thing timeline April 2014. However, I hope it stays down till then and I can accumulate.
The new land laws, in my view is positive and not detrimental to the business and it's also a small part.
I think only time will tell. My chips are solidly placed on HF.
mwekez@ji
#738 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 5:51:53 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
Horton wrote:
... The new land laws, in my view is positive and not detrimental to the business ...


How are the new Land Laws positive for the business?
guru267
#739 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 6:31:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
VituVingiSana wrote:

I never referred to the the provision being retrospective as regards spousal consent. Nevertheless, there will be challenges from wives, concubines, mistresses and their kids.


I thought Kenya had a system for recognizing who qualifies as a spouse and who doesn't.?!


VituVingiSana wrote:

Now go to: Retrospective effect on ongoing sales by chargees - where a secured lender had initiated "any steps to foreclose a charge" before the enactment of the new laws, the borrower may apply to court for an injunction to stop the continuation of any such step. If such an injunction is issued, the lender may commence fresh proceedings under the new laws in order to exercise their statutory power of sale.


I don't think judges just give out injunctions willy nilly...
There would have to be an analysis to see if the charge over the property qualifies under the new law and whether it is retrospective... If it meets the above criteria then and only then should an injunction be granted!
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
Horton
#740 Posted : Monday, November 04, 2013 7:11:56 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 8/30/2007
Posts: 1,558
Location: Nairobi
mwekez@ji wrote:
Horton wrote:
... The new land laws, in my view is positive and not detrimental to the business ...


How are the new Land Laws positive for the business?



if implemented properly, these will cut out lots of red tape, no doubt the spousal approval and landlord rights might impact negatively on banks and landlords respectively....
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