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KDF did a great job at Westgate
Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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jaggernaut wrote:Pedes wrote:Mukiri wrote:poundfoolish wrote:To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...
Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.
Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.
2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.
Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.
But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.
In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.
3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.
KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.
Ditto. I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action. How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)? How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight? How does such extensive damage occur? Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages? It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants. If you dont train together friendly fire will happen, more so if guys are not informed that there is incoming reinforcement. There is talk of Israeli guys opting not to work alongside KDF. They train some of our Recce, so, they would have been ok with them. One of the recce guys was interviewed recently (it was in the Daily Nation) and he said that the first batch of army guys that went into the mall hadn't been informed that recce were inside there, and so the 2 grps met in a 90 degree corner and there was shooting before recce identified themselves. Unfortunately 2 recce guys including the formation leader had been hit. Both answers don't answer the question!  Tactical command are a group of big shots, hopefully trained in warfare who sit round a table and formulate a course of action. How does one group not know the other is there? How do you even bring together two assault teams with not form of communication? Ama it was all guess-work in there? Ama competition?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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jaggernaut wrote:Mukiri wrote:
I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action.
How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)?
How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight?
How does such extensive damage occur?
Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages?
It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants.
CCTV footage shows that the terrorists had no hostages since they killed anyone they encountered, even reshooting the already dead. Hostages are held when terrorists want to negotiate, but these ones were on a suicide mission. Thus in the final KDF assault, there were actually no hostages to be rescued. Isn't that assumption? When were those CCTVs reviewed? During the attack? And weren't there people hiding in there? People who kept communicating with loved ones, every once in a while?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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jaggernaut wrote:Mukiri wrote:poundfoolish wrote:To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...
Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.
Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.
2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.
Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.
But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.
In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.
3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.
KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.
Ditto. I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action. How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)? How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight? How does such extensive damage occur? Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages? It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants. It's on record that the fire raged for 2 days before the building collapsed. If the KDF had blown it up, it would have collapsed immediately. I think the building couldn't withstand the intense fire at the supermarket and this led to the collapse. Nakumatt store was under that parking and not in the main westgate buiding. There also appears to be something not structurally right with that slab construction. Maybe @a4architect can give us expert opinion.   This one we can't argue! You even don't have to be a professional to know the difference between destruction from fire and from a projectile! Ama that fire was selective in nature? Burning a hole three floors up and leaving intact the rest of the building? 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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jaggernaut wrote:Pedes wrote:Mukiri wrote:poundfoolish wrote:To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...
Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught
Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.
But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.
In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.
3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.
KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.
Ditto. I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action. How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)? How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight? How does such extensive damage occur? Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages? It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants. If you dont train together friendly fire will happen, more so if guys are not informed that there is incoming reinforcement. There is talk of Israeli guys opting not to work alongside KDF. They train some of our Recce, so, they would have been ok with them. One of the recce guys was interviewed recently (it was in the Daily Nation) and he said that the first batch of army guys that went into the mall hadn't been informed that recce were inside there, and so the 2 grps met in a 90 degree corner and there was shooting before recce identified themselves. Unfortunately 2 recce guys including the formation leader had been hit. Now what is that ? Seriously? Who should be fired for this? I am happy
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Posts: 399 Location: Where everyone knows you
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Mukiri wrote:jaggernaut wrote:Pedes wrote:Mukiri wrote:poundfoolish wrote:To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...
Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.
Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.
2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.
Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.
But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.
In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.
3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.
KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.
Ditto. I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action. How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)? How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight? How does such extensive damage occur? Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages? It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants. If you dont train together friendly fire will happen, more so if guys are not informed that there is incoming reinforcement. There is talk of Israeli guys opting not to work alongside KDF. They train some of our Recce, so, they would have been ok with them. One of the recce guys was interviewed recently (it was in the Daily Nation) and he said that the first batch of army guys that went into the mall hadn't been informed that recce were inside there, and so the 2 grps met in a 90 degree corner and there was shooting before recce identified themselves. Unfortunately 2 recce guys including the formation leader had been hit. Both answers don't answer the question! Tactical command are a group of big shots, hopefully trained in warfare who sit round a table and formulate a course of action. How does one group not know the other is there? How do you even bring together two assault teams with not form of communication? Ama it was all guess-work in there? Ama competition? I think you have nailed it. The Recce squad had things under control. If, for any reason, they needed assistance, the Israel guys or more Recce guys should have come in. Someone decided that the KDF should also get some credit and sent them in WITHOUT informing either party of this. THIS WAS NOT A JOB FOR THE KDF. THEY ARE NOT TRAINED FOR SUCH OPERATIONS. We can now see the sad result of this stupid decision.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/22/2009 Posts: 2,449 Location: Africa
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What do we expect from a force that's rejecting hopefuls who scored Bs preferring to go for those with Ds apparently because they won't leave for further studies? Link, today's nation
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/9/2008 Posts: 5,389
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Mukiri wrote:This one we can't argue! You even don't have to be a professional to know the difference between destruction from fire and from a projectile! Ama that fire was selective in nature? Burning a hole three floors up and leaving intact the rest of the building? There was a void at the middle of the nakumatt store. So what happened is that after the fire, part of the roof above the void (which was a parking) collapsed. Smoke was billowing from that skylight above the void. 
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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Now every other boy in the village is beginning to believe in this one man army story. I can't see how Kenya could have no strategic and tactical control of what was happening.
When Westgate was happening and some days after al Jazeera was saying that the al Shabaab had Kalashnikovs in there. I sniffed a rat. But when I learned how an AK behaves under heavy gunfire I, I became convinced that this whole business is stinky.
Now that we have a band of looters, and incompetent gun men as our protectors what do we do?
If this was an operation designed to shake our psychology then I fear that it was an opening for worse effects like a total negation of our basic freedoms.
We can be very easily thrown into confusion.
Now as we foam, the poison spreads. And as the body wiggles you wonder what the cassus belli is. And whether the armed forces can handle the task.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/15/2012 Posts: 1,110
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Shak wrote:What do we expect from a force that's rejecting hopefuls who scored Bs preferring to go for those with Ds apparently because they won't leave for further studies? Link, today's nation One of the most stupid remarks by a high ranking officer yet. Live Full Die Empty - Les Brown.
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/14/2011 Posts: 639
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Much Know wrote:They did NOT steal, that video will soon be debunked, this Moha is a total FOOL to take advantage of the gullibility of the public to twist what he knows are total lie to a public who KNOW NOTHING about military operations, those guys are TRAINED to break open ATM machines, and that is information you will NEVER find anywhere in the globe, the machines also have cameras and the banks reported what happened to the public and Mpigs
“Barclays Bank has confirmed in writing that its Sh68 million is intact. DTB had Sh65 million, CFC had Sh32 million, KCB (Sh32 million) and Millionaire Casino Sh50 million. All this money was repatriated to the headquarters or other branches during the operation,”
If i gave you/a policeman an ATM machine and a whole week to open it without blowing up the money inside you would not succeed. I believe what Nation and NTV have done is criminal, this moha is a part of al-kebaab for sure. Let me repeat, this Moha is a complete IDIOT + FOOL taking advantage of the gullibility of the public which is UNFAIR Mohammed Ali is a sympathiser of Alshabaab as so is a number of Kenyan muslims.He has been tasked to discredit our Army by the Alshabaab operatives.They are in most mosques and this is in the intelligence community knowledge.What am sure is that its a matter of when and not if this will come to the fore
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