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KDF did a great job at Westgate
stingingnettle
#41 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 7:10:03 PM
Rank: Hello

Joined: 10/18/2013
Posts: 6
mwanaume ni kukaa ngumu kweli,am still looking for the winning side to join
Why does a woman work ten years to change a man, then complain he's not the man she married?
poundfoolish
#42 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 7:27:25 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...

Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.

Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.

2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.

Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.

But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.

In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.

3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.

KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.


jamplu
#43 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 7:27:40 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 939
Location: Nai
2012 wrote:
I don't think we're attacking KDF they've done this nation proud. Now whether they looted or not is not the bigger issue. It's were they really needed at the Westgate? Are they better trained than GSU Recce to handle these kind of situations? Why did the seige take tjat long? Did they get the terorrists? There are just too many unanswered questions and there's no doubt in anybody's mind that this was not the way to do it.


Army was not needed there. Recce squad are far much better trained for hostage rescue than the army guyz who were at westgate the same reason they are the ones who offer security to the president and VIP's and not the army.
Mukiri
#44 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 7:39:13 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
poundfoolish wrote:
To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...

Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.

Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.

2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.

Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.

But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.

In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.

3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.

KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.



Ditto.

I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action.
How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)?
How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight?
How does such extensive damage occur?
Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages?

It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants.

Proverbs 19:21
Siringi
#45 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:05:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/8/2013
Posts: 2,517
I look myself in the conscience mirror this is what I see

1. The head : Judicial service commission

2. Upper torso (heart and lungs): regular honest wanjiru craving good middo crass live

3. mid torso (matumbo na makalio) an Mpig -gluttony

4. Lower torso kdf and lower echelons of civil service


MKenya mzalendo
"😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
Pedes
#46 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 8:15:34 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/30/2013
Posts: 659
Mukiri wrote:
poundfoolish wrote:
To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...

Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.

Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.

2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.

Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.

But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.

In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.

3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.

KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.



Ditto.

I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action.
How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)?
How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight?
How does such extensive damage occur?
Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages?

It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants.


If you dont train together friendly fire will happen, more so if guys are not informed that there is incoming reinforcement. There is talk of Israeli guys opting not to work alongside KDF. They train some of our Recce, so, they would have been ok with them.
If you stay ready, no need to get ready.
jaggernaut
#47 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:16:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
Pedes wrote:
Mukiri wrote:
poundfoolish wrote:
To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...

Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.

Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.

2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.

Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.

But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.

In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.

3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.

KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.



Ditto.

I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action.
How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)?
How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight?
How does such extensive damage occur?
Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages?

It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants.


If you dont train together friendly fire will happen, more so if guys are not informed that there is incoming reinforcement. There is talk of Israeli guys opting not to work alongside KDF. They train some of our Recce, so, they would have been ok with them.


One of the recce guys was interviewed recently (it was in the Daily Nation) and he said that the first batch of army guys that went into the mall hadn't been informed that recce were inside there, and so the 2 grps met in a 90 degree corner and there was shooting before recce identified themselves. Unfortunately 2 recce guys including the formation leader had been hit.
jaggernaut
#48 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:28:48 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
Mukiri wrote:
poundfoolish wrote:
To the originator of this thread.
I sa-loot you...

Truth is
1. shops were vandalised in the period that KDF were incharge of the siege.
Soldiers brought in from Gilgil... i believe some paratroopers are under surveillance.
A common shopkeeper, in the town was caught disposing off a good no. of tablets given by.... wait... Your guess is as good as mine.

Incase the government keeps denying this deplorable shame. More cctv footages will pop up.

2. The terrorists went out for a final battle. The wounded guy was already suffering and bleeding heavily.. i think he blew himself off or something. there is footage of the others trying to wipe off his sweat.
They took different positions in the parking lot and basement..after a firefight with the Army rangers at night and some went down.. the Army decided to 'bomb' their general area.
Hence they were neutered by KDF RPG on monday morning.

Now the rest of the troops holding guard in the 'main mall' decided to have a good time.

But in all honesty. the entire operation in military terms was a failure. and not that the terrorists managed to give us a hard time but our forces did us in.

In any such situation the first and most important thing is to
1.Save as many lives in danger as possible.
While Recce provided cover as they cornered the thugs..The plain clothes,flying squad, Haj and fellow armed citizens had done a good job getting people outside the building.
2. minimise damage to property as much as possible.
This is because terrorists go for two things. kill as many people and then cause massive economic damage.
KDF brought the house down and left with valuables. hence helping the terrorists achieve one of their objectives.

3. Try to capture the terrorists who go in ready to die.
a clincher here would be to get them alive. If possible but probably kill them all.

KDF has to date brought us no proof of that since they decided to bomb the place. nkt!
In any military school or special ops classes. this will be used as an example of how not to conduct an operation.



Ditto.

I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action.
How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)?
How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight?
How does such extensive damage occur?
Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages?

It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants.


It's on record that the fire raged for 2 days before the building collapsed. If the KDF had blown it up, it would have collapsed immediately. I think the building couldn't withstand the intense fire at the supermarket and this led to the collapse. Nakumatt store was under that parking and not in the main westgate buiding. There also appears to be something not structurally right with that slab construction. Maybe @a4architect can give us expert opinion.



jaggernaut
#49 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:41:23 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/9/2008
Posts: 5,389
Mukiri wrote:


I remember asking if tactical command lay out a 'game-plan' before any offensive action.
How does friendly fire happen(this not even in the initial stages when there is confusion)?
How does the IG put on a vest and try get into a fire-fight?
How does such extensive damage occur?
Is the death of insurgents more important than rescuing the lives of hostages?

It is why people hesitate to call the Police when carjacked. They might 'dispatch' you together with your assailants.


CCTV footage shows that the terrorists had no hostages since they killed anyone they encountered, even reshooting the already dead. Hostages are held when terrorists want to negotiate, but these ones were on a suicide mission. Thus in the final KDF assault, there were actually no hostages to be rescued.
poundfoolish
#50 Posted : Saturday, October 19, 2013 9:57:25 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
Jaggernaut

Can you pinpoint
The location of the entry to the underground tunnel?
the location of the room they were hiding in last...?
I believe that room is near the area that collapsed.

And this is where i fault Moha and Namu.. they just tell us the terrorists left the room. then go ahead and give scenarios of how they could have escaped.
Unless they were waiting for darkness and they had rented the houses just behind WestgatE.. there is no way they escaped.
If i had Namu right.. they would have exited through Peponi road. now to access Peponi road, they needed to go through the concrete wall through the adjacent compounds and to Peponi road.
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