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UN Security Council finally agrees to defer case?
Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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InnovateGuy wrote:McReggae wrote:masukuma wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:McReggae wrote:InnovateGuy wrote:tycho wrote:ecstacy wrote:tycho wrote:
If, we negotiate with the ICC tactfully, we can avoid making this a chest thumping competition and come with a real solution to and for the common man.
How do we negotiate with the ICC tactfully? I like your thoughts but you can't simply get in and out of international obligations when you discover they are somewhat manipulated. Diplomatic pressure has to be brought to bear and with no economic clout we only have the AU membership to legally(safely) make this point. I agree with you on the use of diplomatic force, but the common man can also be handy here. It's about fostering agreement among ourselves. As for the ICC, we will not be walking in and out, but we will be affirming and protecting it. Let's give ICC what it wants but in this case some negotiations have to take place. And will it be the first time a prosecution will cut a deal? A deal that will leave it's position stronger? This whole thing is politics, and why should we cheer others as they play? If the common citizen can get something of value out of this why shouldn't he go for it? I care about justice, and I see a different kind of genocide where young men and women are killed every day in the fight against crime. Nowadays children have become robbers. The gap between the rich and poor is still widening as we quote 'Locke'. What's the point of all this circus? The ICC should help stop it by working with and for the 'sufferers of the world'. Perhaps I should put this matter better by sharing my personal experience on this. Everyday I visit a friend who was shot on the back during PEV and left paralyzed waist down. He's a young man who suddenly found himself deserted even by his wife and children. He is a strong man and does well in taking care of himself, but think about the children. They must at least have some explanation to all these experiences they're having. Should I be shouting about whether the President should or shouldn't go? The question is where's my son, daughter, brother . . . father, and unfortunately over a thousand are missing on this account. How will UK's imprisonment answer this question? Am I prepared to tell the Children that it's because Uhuru and Sang are bad people and thankfully they are behind bars? God forbid! My goggles can't see justice there.
Short-term gains vs long term gains. As a country, should we go for peace or for justice? Some feel that three people should be held responsible for the PEV. Others feel that communities that were fighting came together, which negates the need for justice.
Climbing the tree starts from the bottom. Focusing on the end and then working our way backwards can be a good starting point. Above all, the bottom part of the tree is as important as the the top part. But the focus in now shifting. It's back to square one. Which way forward? Came together? You sure about that? Kiuks and Kaleos. They now 'share' power. it is a step in the right direction. Aha...implying only kiuks and kaleos suffered in the PEV......I don't think kaleos even make it into the top 3 of communities that suffered but ISORAIT!!!! Judge Krieglar and Waki could be good reference points. These two communities have fought for resources (read land) even before 2007! They have fought before that I agree but in the context of 2007 PEV I think it's a long shot to conclude that coz kaleos and kiuks are now together then the communities that suffered are now togother!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:@Masukuma, at least let others forgive people they know and can relate with and to.
Give those who can forgive a chance to learn and improve their lot. Let's not speak about Cambodia and try to fit ourselves to their experience alone, let's also raise standards. Truth is rarely vindictive. this is my assessment of conflict world wide... Justice is a means to ensure that people move on... Justice indeed helps people 'to move on', but to move on to what destination? And who determines the destination and direction? If we take South Africa as an example, we see that there was a 'truth and reconciliation' push that could have invoked 'forgiveness'. But it's still there that the African has turned against himself courtesy of xenophobia. There was no true healing, or moving on in the 'Marikana massacre'. 'Moving on' shouldn't be a passive acceptance of what the powerful do while we remain weak and powerless.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:@Masukuma, at least let others forgive people they know and can relate with and to.
Give those who can forgive a chance to learn and improve their lot. Let's not speak about Cambodia and try to fit ourselves to their experience alone, let's also raise standards. Truth is rarely vindictive. this is my assessment of conflict world wide... Justice is a means to ensure that people move on... Justice indeed helps people 'to move on', but to move on to what destination? And who determines the destination and direction? If we take South Africa as an example, we see that there was a 'truth and reconciliation' push that could have invoked 'forgiveness'. But it's still there that the African has turned against himself courtesy of xenophobia. There was no true healing, or moving on in the 'Marikana massacre'. 'Moving on' shouldn't be a passive acceptance of what the powerful do while we remain weak and powerless. indeed you do understand the concept of 40 years in the desert! where a generation passes... the generation that knew egypt goes. it is not magical... people still remember but opt to move forward and the children that come innocently gel the communities together. its not a switch that is flicked!! this is the only guaranteed way forward. these farces that we call trials will not give us that forward moving direction. later a generation that knew not Joseph will show up! no silver bullets in this I am afraid... if there was - CONGO WOULD BE AWASH WITH PEACE AFTER LUBANGA WAS SENTENCED. I have personally worked in countries that are properly post conflict and the way they move on is always in means that are seen to be just and peaceful. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:@Masukuma, at least let others forgive people they know and can relate with and to.
Give those who can forgive a chance to learn and improve their lot. Let's not speak about Cambodia and try to fit ourselves to their experience alone, let's also raise standards. Truth is rarely vindictive. this is my assessment of conflict world wide... Justice is a means to ensure that people move on... Justice indeed helps people 'to move on', but to move on to what destination? And who determines the destination and direction? If we take South Africa as an example, we see that there was a 'truth and reconciliation' push that could have invoked 'forgiveness'. But it's still there that the African has turned against himself courtesy of xenophobia. There was no true healing, or moving on in the 'Marikana massacre'. 'Moving on' shouldn't be a passive acceptance of what the powerful do while we remain weak and powerless. indeed you do understand the concept of 40 years in the desert! where a generation passes... the generation that knew egypt goes. it is not magical... people still remember but opt to move forward and the children that come innocently gel the communities together. its not a switch that is flicked!! this is the only guaranteed way forward. these farces that we call trials will not give us that forward moving direction. later a generation that knew not Joseph will show up! no silver bullets in this I am afraid... if there was - CONGO WOULD BE AWASH WITH PEACE AFTER LUBANGA WAS SENTENCED. I have personally worked in countries that are properly post conflict and the way they move on is always in means that are seen to be just and peaceful. Generations don't just come and go. They are deliberately born and socialized. Can this approach apply to the Palestinians? Or Egyptians, or in Libya?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/4/2006 Posts: 13,823 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:masukuma wrote:tycho wrote:@Masukuma, at least let others forgive people they know and can relate with and to.
Give those who can forgive a chance to learn and improve their lot. Let's not speak about Cambodia and try to fit ourselves to their experience alone, let's also raise standards. Truth is rarely vindictive. this is my assessment of conflict world wide... Justice is a means to ensure that people move on... Justice indeed helps people 'to move on', but to move on to what destination? And who determines the destination and direction? If we take South Africa as an example, we see that there was a 'truth and reconciliation' push that could have invoked 'forgiveness'. But it's still there that the African has turned against himself courtesy of xenophobia. There was no true healing, or moving on in the 'Marikana massacre'. 'Moving on' shouldn't be a passive acceptance of what the powerful do while we remain weak and powerless. indeed you do understand the concept of 40 years in the desert! where a generation passes... the generation that knew egypt goes. it is not magical... people still remember but opt to move forward and the children that come innocently gel the communities together. its not a switch that is flicked!! this is the only guaranteed way forward. these farces that we call trials will not give us that forward moving direction. later a generation that knew not Joseph will show up! no silver bullets in this I am afraid... if there was - CONGO WOULD BE AWASH WITH PEACE AFTER LUBANGA WAS SENTENCED. I have personally worked in countries that are properly post conflict and the way they move on is always in means that are seen to be just and peaceful. Generations don't just come and go. They are deliberately born and socialized. Can this approach apply to the Palestinians? Or Egyptians, or in Libya? exactly... in an environment of peace it can happen... in an environment such as the one we are creating...vindictive... not in a 100 years. All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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masukuma wrote:mimi the only person i see as resonable is MakaChieth halafu to some rare extent MacDoba hawa wengine ni Goggles kibao!! This is sarcasm ,it this sarcasm ? Yes,this is sarcasm  I am happy
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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Am wrote:Amores wrote:KulaRaha wrote:Never seen an innocent man so scared of proving his innocence...wah, full blown panic has set in...mafears... I think you are spreading untruths. The President's speech said this "All I have requested as President is to be allowed to execute my constitutional obligations as the forensic side of things is handled by my lawyers" This to me does not sound like someone who does not want the case to go on. I think that we all appreciate that it is indeed complicated and i know what the PORK said during the campaigns,but the reality is that he is a seating president,with a job to do.Kuketi huko hague is not one of them On the notion of innocence,the process is manupulated,with each side trying to show or dicredit the other,so making a statement like " ever seen an innocent man so scared of proving his innocence" is unnecessary sarcasm and donning of concrete goggles.Kiraitu was right when he said that the cases at the hague were political and needed a political solution. I welcome defferal too. Prepare for Gunshots from Wazua Sycophants. By now you know I am not scared of artillery here.I am just stating what i think- kila mtu ako na opinion yake. I do not think the President wants to evade trial,he is ackwnolegding the difficulties of ruling and reigning from Hague.Reality Check. So for him to ask to be exempt from attending but for his lawyers to be there,in my opinion is a good thing. On defferal,i think it would give time for the government to function properly,so on that front,I welcome deferral. Why do we have sense of urgency about doing it now? These guys will still be alive next year and many years to come. I see no point getting stuck to what he said when he was campaigning or even after,reality of the situation is that this is just hard. I remember when the Westgate attack happened and he took long to address the Nation,there was palpable anxiety. Now imagine something happens ( i don not mean another attack) and he is in some court room staring on the ceiling and Osuji? I am happy
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/20/2012 Posts: 888
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Amores wrote:Am wrote:Amores wrote:KulaRaha wrote:Never seen an innocent man so scared of proving his innocence...wah, full blown panic has set in...mafears... I think you are spreading untruths. The President's speech said this "All I have requested as President is to be allowed to execute my constitutional obligations as the forensic side of things is handled by my lawyers" This to me does not sound like someone who does not want the case to go on. I think that we all appreciate that it is indeed complicated and i know what the PORK said during the campaigns,but the reality is that he is a seating president,with a job to do.Kuketi huko hague is not one of them On the notion of innocence,the process is manupulated,with each side trying to show or dicredit the other,so making a statement like " ever seen an innocent man so scared of proving his innocence" is unnecessary sarcasm and donning of concrete goggles.Kiraitu was right when he said that the cases at the hague were political and needed a political solution. I welcome defferal too. Prepare for Gunshots from Wazua Sycophants. By now you know I am not scared of artillery here.I am just stating what i think- kila mtu ako na opinion yake. I do not think the President wants to evade trial,he is ackwnolegding the difficulties of ruling and reigning from Hague.Reality Check. So for him to ask to be exempt from attending but for his lawyers to be there,in my opinion is a good thing. On defferal,i think it would give time for the government to function properly,so on that front,I welcome deferral. Why do we have sense of urgency about doing it now? These guys will still be alive next year and many years to come. I see no point getting stuck to what he said when he was campaigning or even after,reality of the situation is that this is just hard. I remember when the Westgate attack happened and he took long to address the Nation,there was palpable anxiety. Now imagine something happens ( i don not mean another attack) and he is in some court room staring on the ceiling and Osuji? I maintain the President of a country and the deputy should never(mark never) step in a court in a foreign country. The reasoning is simple- These are elected persons. They are supposed to serve Kenyans for five years no less. They are accountable to the people of Kenya. The import of this is simple.All Kenyans are attending or are in trial meaning the court will grind Kenya to a halt. ICCFA should wait untill the persons are Mr. so and so or former so and so. Why did the court wait for five years. Justice delayed is justice denied. I abhor impunity but certainly this court is unlikely to end impunity and dispense justice.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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MKWASI wrote:Amores wrote:Am wrote:Amores wrote:KulaRaha wrote:Never seen an innocent man so scared of proving his innocence...wah, full blown panic has set in...mafears... I think you are spreading untruths. The President's speech said this "All I have requested as President is to be allowed to execute my constitutional obligations as the forensic side of things is handled by my lawyers" This to me does not sound like someone who does not want the case to go on. I think that we all appreciate that it is indeed complicated and i know what the PORK said during the campaigns,but the reality is that he is a seating president,with a job to do.Kuketi huko hague is not one of them On the notion of innocence,the process is manupulated,with each side trying to show or dicredit the other,so making a statement like " ever seen an innocent man so scared of proving his innocence" is unnecessary sarcasm and donning of concrete goggles.Kiraitu was right when he said that the cases at the hague were political and needed a political solution. I welcome defferal too. Prepare for Gunshots from Wazua Sycophants. By now you know I am not scared of artillery here.I am just stating what i think- kila mtu ako na opinion yake. I do not think the President wants to evade trial,he is ackwnolegding the difficulties of ruling and reigning from Hague.Reality Check. So for him to ask to be exempt from attending but for his lawyers to be there,in my opinion is a good thing. On defferal,i think it would give time for the government to function properly,so on that front,I welcome deferral. Why do we have sense of urgency about doing it now? These guys will still be alive next year and many years to come. I see no point getting stuck to what he said when he was campaigning or even after,reality of the situation is that this is just hard. I remember when the Westgate attack happened and he took long to address the Nation,there was palpable anxiety. Now imagine something happens ( i don not mean another attack) and he is in some court room staring on the ceiling and Osuji? I maintain the President of a country and the deputy should never(mark never) step in a court in a foreign country. The reasoning is simple- These are elected persons. They are supposed to serve Kenyans for five years no less. They are accountable to the people of Kenya. The import of this is simple.All Kenyans are attending or are in trial meaning the court will grind Kenya to a halt. ICCFA should wait untill the persons are Mr. so and so or former so and so. Why did the court wait for five years. Justice delayed is justice denied. I abhor impunity but certainly this court is unlikely to end impunity and dispense justice. Blame your constitution....not the foreign courts!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/8/2013 Posts: 126
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they should never..., but the deputy president has already stepped at the foreign court, still waiting for kenya to grind to a halt.
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