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Whose Justice? #ICC
ecstacy
#1 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 12:39:30 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2008
Posts: 4,449
Having observed the quality of investigations so far undertaken by the ICC Chief Prosecutor's Office in the Deputy Presidents case as well as those of F.Muthaura, Gen. Ali and H.Kosgey, I am led to believe that the likelihood of conviction in the cases for the current Deputy President and President of Kenya is diminishing by the week based on evidence alone (this is not to say any are guilty).

With the foregoing, what would happen if the charges are found not to be valid? Does it mean one cannot be tried again due to double jeopardy? Whether that is the case or not, can't Bensouda ask for the case to be stopped and do fresh investigations so that the 'real' perpetrators of the PEV 2007-2008 can be brought to book?

Failure to have carried out serious investigations or instituting fresh investigations leads me to ask Whose justice is being fought for by the ICC??

Incompetence or political considerations for regime change from the Office of the Chief Prosecutor or its funders may deny victims of Kenya PEV the justice they deserve.
masukuma
#2 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:11:06 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
indeed... what is justice... whose justice? wengine hapa wanavent JUSTICE! JUSTICE! kumbe nikungojea mkono ianguke!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
King G
#3 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:36:38 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2012
Posts: 3,855
Location: Othumo
ecstacy wrote:
Incompetence or political considerations for regime change from the Office of the Chief Prosecutor or its funders may deny victims of Kenya PEV the justice they deserve.


Who are these???????
Thieves
mkonomtupu
#4 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:37:12 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/10/2010
Posts: 1,001
Location: River Road
ecstacy wrote:
Having observed the quality of investigations so far undertaken by the ICC Chief Prosecutor's Office in the Deputy Presidents case as well as those of F.Muthaura, Gen. Ali and H.Kosgey, I am led to believe that the likelihood of conviction in the cases for the current Deputy President and President of Kenya is diminishing by the week based on evidence alone (this is not to say any are guilty).

.


Looking at the evidence alone the likelihood for conviction is very high especially for the president. Please consider what the court believed in the confirmation

1. Witness OTP-12 who confirms both that 8 million KSh was brought to Maina Njenga in prison and that the person who gave this money to Maina Njenga was sent by Mr. Kenyatta.

2.According to Witness OTP-12, in late January 2008, before the commission of the crimes in Naivasha, Maina Njenga was given another 20 million KSh, which was brought to him in prison again by Maina Diambo.

3.What needs to be established is exclusively
whether Mr. Kenyatta used the Mungiki for the purposes of the commission of the crimes. In fact, in order to attribute the crimes committed by the Mungiki to Mr. Kenyatta, it is not necessary that Mungiki members share the purpose or the motive of the suspects; quite the opposite, within the scheme of indirect co-perpetration.

4. Regardless of the party that presented it, direct evidence that is both relevant and trustworthy has a high probative value. It follows that a single piece of direct evidence may be decisive for the Chamber's determination.

5. The Defence of Mr. Kenyatta mounted a comprehensive challenge to the credibility of Witnesses OTP-11 and OTP-12. Having carefully reviewed in detail the relevant documents, and in particular the excerpts cited during the hearing,Chamber concludes that no such extortion attempt occurred...

Do you think he will survive? This is not an ordinary court it is a victim's court. The President if he is naive to go for trial will be convicted just like his dad Jomo who was convicted on perjured evidence of one Rawson Macharia. Remember prosecution does not need to convince the kenyan public it just needs to convince two mzungu judges and it's a done deal.

I wouldn't go to such a Kangaroo court and pretend to expect justice.
Am
#5 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:44:17 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/21/2012
Posts: 1,739
ecstacy wrote:
Having observed the quality of investigations so far undertaken by the ICC Chief Prosecutor's Office in the Deputy Presidents case as well as those of F.Muthaura, Gen. Ali and H.Kosgey, I am led to believe that the likelihood of conviction in the cases for the current Deputy President and President of Kenya is diminishing by the week based on evidence alone (this is not to say any are guilty).

With the foregoing, what would happen if the charges are found not to be valid? Does it mean one cannot be tried again due to double jeopardy? Whether that is the case or not, can't Bensouda ask for the case to be stopped and do fresh investigations so that the 'real' perpetrators of the PEV 2007-2008 can be brought to book?

Failure to have carried out serious investigations or instituting fresh investigations leads me to ask Whose justice is being fought for by the ICC??

Incompetence or political considerations for regime change from the Office of the Chief Prosecutor or its funders may deny victims of Kenya PEV the justice they deserve.


@Ecstacy. My Goggles are off as I comment on this issue.

Indeed, the Prosecution did a very very shoddy Job and exposed her weakneses too much.

I do not want to Quote examples here as they are so many and I do not know which to quote. But If you have been following the proceedings like I have then you know what I am talking about.

It's either MAMA had no time to Investigate or had an ultimate goal in mind that she wanted to Pursue by all means.

So far, the witnesses have done little to help MAMA argue her case. They have really helped he Defense lawyers argue their case.

Plus the recent Comment by the lead Prosecutor in Ruto's case, that "Kenya can nominate another Citizen to represent Ruto when he is away in the Hague" exposed MAMA'S lack of understanding of what she is doing. Did you see Judge Esuji's facial expression and Comments to that statement?
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God..
mkenyan
#6 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 1:53:48 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 4/1/2009
Posts: 1,885
Am wrote:
ecstacy wrote:
Having observed the quality of investigations so far undertaken by the ICC Chief Prosecutor's Office in the Deputy Presidents case as well as those of F.Muthaura, Gen. Ali and H.Kosgey, I am led to believe that the likelihood of conviction in the cases for the current Deputy President and President of Kenya is diminishing by the week based on evidence alone (this is not to say any are guilty).

With the foregoing, what would happen if the charges are found not to be valid? Does it mean one cannot be tried again due to double jeopardy? Whether that is the case or not, can't Bensouda ask for the case to be stopped and do fresh investigations so that the 'real' perpetrators of the PEV 2007-2008 can be brought to book?

Failure to have carried out serious investigations or instituting fresh investigations leads me to ask Whose justice is being fought for by the ICC??

Incompetence or political considerations for regime change from the Office of the Chief Prosecutor or its funders may deny victims of Kenya PEV the justice they deserve.


@Ecstacy. My Goggles are off as I comment on this issue.

Indeed, the Prosecution did a very very shoddy Job and exposed her weakneses too much.

I do not want to Quote examples here as they are so many and I do not know which to quote. But If you have been following the proceedings like I have then you know what I am talking about.

It's either MAMA had no time to Investigate or had an ultimate goal in mind that she wanted to Pursue by all means.

So far, the witnesses have done little to help MAMA argue her case. They have really helped he Defense lawyers argue their case.

Plus the recent Comment by the lead Prosecutor in Ruto's case, that "Kenya can nominate another Citizen to represent Ruto when he is away in the Hague" exposed MAMA'S lack of understanding of what she is doing. Did you see Judge Esuji's facial expression and Comments to that statement?

i always read and hear of how the prosecution did a shoddy job, how the real culprits are out there etc. it seems people like you on the internet have some information that us mortals do not have. how is it that you can arrive to this conclusion without having access to the full case and evidence against the two?
kingfisher
#7 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 2:10:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 4/9/2008
Posts: 2,824
mkenyan wrote:
Am wrote:
ecstacy wrote:
Having observed the quality of investigations so far undertaken by the ICC Chief Prosecutor's Office in the Deputy Presidents case as well as those of F.Muthaura, Gen. Ali and H.Kosgey, I am led to believe that the likelihood of conviction in the cases for the current Deputy President and President of Kenya is diminishing by the week based on evidence alone (this is not to say any are guilty).

With the foregoing, what would happen if the charges are found not to be valid? Does it mean one cannot be tried again due to double jeopardy? Whether that is the case or not, can't Bensouda ask for the case to be stopped and do fresh investigations so that the 'real' perpetrators of the PEV 2007-2008 can be brought to book?

Failure to have carried out serious investigations or instituting fresh investigations leads me to ask Whose justice is being fought for by the ICC??

Incompetence or political considerations for regime change from the Office of the Chief Prosecutor or its funders may deny victims of Kenya PEV the justice they deserve.


@Ecstacy. My Goggles are off as I comment on this issue.

Indeed, the Prosecution did a very very shoddy Job and exposed her weakneses too much.

I do not want to Quote examples here as they are so many and I do not know which to quote. But If you have been following the proceedings like I have then you know what I am talking about.

It's either MAMA had no time to Investigate or had an ultimate goal in mind that she wanted to Pursue by all means.

So far, the witnesses have done little to help MAMA argue her case. They have really helped he Defense lawyers argue their case.

Plus the recent Comment by the lead Prosecutor in Ruto's case, that "Kenya can nominate another Citizen to represent Ruto when he is away in the Hague" exposed MAMA'S lack of understanding of what she is doing. Did you see Judge Esuji's facial expression and Comments to that statement?

i always read and hear of how the prosecution did a shoddy job, how the real culprits are out there etc. it seems people like you on the internet have some information that us mortals do not have. how is it that you can arrive to this conclusion without having access to the full case and evidence against the two?


@mkenyan
while making the comment above, what was the status of your goggles?? on OR off?? we know the color though!!
When I have money, I get rid of it quickly, lest it find a way into my heart.
Am
#8 Posted : Monday, October 14, 2013 2:11:45 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/21/2012
Posts: 1,739
mkenyan wrote:
Am wrote:
ecstacy wrote:
Having observed the quality of investigations so far undertaken by the ICC Chief Prosecutor's Office in the Deputy Presidents case as well as those of F.Muthaura, Gen. Ali and H.Kosgey, I am led to believe that the likelihood of conviction in the cases for the current Deputy President and President of Kenya is diminishing by the week based on evidence alone (this is not to say any are guilty).

With the foregoing, what would happen if the charges are found not to be valid? Does it mean one cannot be tried again due to double jeopardy? Whether that is the case or not, can't Bensouda ask for the case to be stopped and do fresh investigations so that the 'real' perpetrators of the PEV 2007-2008 can be brought to book?

Failure to have carried out serious investigations or instituting fresh investigations leads me to ask Whose justice is being fought for by the ICC??

Incompetence or political considerations for regime change from the Office of the Chief Prosecutor or its funders may deny victims of Kenya PEV the justice they deserve.


@Ecstacy. My Goggles are off as I comment on this issue.

Indeed, the Prosecution did a very very shoddy Job and exposed her weakneses too much.

I do not want to Quote examples here as they are so many and I do not know which to quote. But If you have been following the proceedings like I have then you know what I am talking about.

It's either MAMA had no time to Investigate or had an ultimate goal in mind that she wanted to Pursue by all means.

So far, the witnesses have done little to help MAMA argue her case. They have really helped he Defense lawyers argue their case.

Plus the recent Comment by the lead Prosecutor in Ruto's case, that "Kenya can nominate another Citizen to represent Ruto when he is away in the Hague" exposed MAMA'S lack of understanding of what she is doing. Did you see Judge Esuji's facial expression and Comments to that statement?

i always read and hear of how the prosecution did a shoddy job, how the real culprits are out there etc. it seems people like you on the internet have some information that us mortals do not have. how is it that you can arrive to this conclusion without having access to the full case and evidence against the two?


According to one @Mkenyan, how do Judges normally arrive at a Judgement? Is it not by examining every Statement that has been made by the accused, Defense and Prosecution lawyers, witnesses etc. Which leads me to the next question. Have you been following the Proceedings.

And What are you referring to when you say I do not have access to the "Full case"?
Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God..
ecstacy
#9 Posted : Friday, October 25, 2013 1:00:26 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2008
Posts: 4,449
Surely with all these weeks gone and Deputy President staff time at the Hague, do you honestly believe they are going anywhere?

It looks like a gross injustice to the actual victims of PEV.

Hunderwear
#10 Posted : Friday, October 25, 2013 1:29:27 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 4/14/2011
Posts: 639
Why are some wazuans so naive???So u guys think that the owners of ICC has interests of victims at heart?U need to think again.This a game of interests and victims and their justice are just collateral damage in greater scheme
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