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Cost of Corruption #WestgateAttack
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:@quicksand, 'faith in God', and 'atheism/agnosticism' may both be Spirituality; but that doesn't make them 'equal'. In fact, you have even differentiated them. Now, how can one differentiate between two things without having a shared frame of reference? At least both are expressible only in terms of 'God'.
When you trace 'the idea' of 'God', you'll find 'ancestors', the 'unborn', and even 'spirits'. That is, worship of God, is the choice, and the experience of seeking of the 'agreement' of these elements I have outlined above. That's why the God of Israel is a God of covenants. And a covenant is made at the altar.
Atheism seeks no such covenants, at least in theory. And agnosticism doesn't know that such covenants exist, and neither does it know whether such covenants must be made in order to ensure that all humanity is free, and powerful, and happy.
Thomas Merton has shown a clear outline of the transition of Chinese Spirituality from 'Confucianism' to 'legalism' as attributed to Mao and the Communist party. Basically, it's a Spirituality that believes in the word of the Communist party. Even the Pope is secondary to their word. Even the Dalai Lama. And credit it to them that they are most dutiful in this Spirituality.
Just recently, I saw an item on al Jazeera saying that global warming is a consequence of human choice. How was, and is, the choice being made? Where is it being made? At the altar? In the boardroom?
@tycho: You illustrate well why spirituality cannot be a framework to build a relatively vice-free (corruption) society. Why? because it keeps evolving. It has no firm centre. In just 3 of your posts, 3 variants have emerged. God in the modern age and sense, Gods of our ancestors, atheism / agnoticism, Confucianism and the new strange one of allegiance to a party (Communist party). 5 actually. It is too fluid for my comfort. It will not work because it lacks a common denominator. The common denominator is simplicity and absoluteness. A is not allowed. Violation of leads to consequence B. Laws and penal code basically. What one spirituality prescribes as good to those who ascribe to it may be harmful to those who don't. What is a state to do when a section of its people harms others and points to their spirituality and claims their actions sanctified? Where will the aggrieved get their reparation? Back to China. The spirituality of believing in the word of the communist party has strict laws at its heart. That is what the communist party does, it makes decrees and laws, punishes those who disobey. China needs this, at 1.3 billion citizens, anything short of absolute order would lead to chaos. So this is a spirituality whose core is law and order. Clear, concise law and order which transcends the Chinese citizenry - foreigners who break chinese law are put in the slammer according to the penal code. Which was my point to begin with. May be the Chinese realize being ruled with a heavy hand is the most feasible option. In Kenya, we have a variant - we are a meek citizenry and we get robbed constantly by the elite. We have unprecedented levels of patience, or is it nonchalance? Would you call that spirituality? I wouldn't. A good start would be by President Kenyatta not fearing to lose his position of power - only then would he be able to start rooting out corruption from within his ranks. This action would swiftly cascade downwards.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/1/2009 Posts: 2,436
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Gathige wrote:..after the corruption ogre has eaten everyone else, it will turn to the same corrupt officials and will demand their pound of flesh.
Your engrish is fery fery haappy  seriously speaking, westgate was the nexus between our penchant for corruption and the poverty of Somali youths (locally and in Zoomalia)who get brainwashed with religious dogma and riches
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Rank: Member Joined: 8/5/2009 Posts: 597
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Anyone been to CID H/Q, looking for certificate of good conduct? If all government offices/bodies work with precise efficiency and effectiveness, corruption would be no more and the hundreds they serve daily. The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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The fluidity, and lack of centeredness of Spirituality is it's greatest strength, and this attribute is actually what is needed in and for our time.
Firstly because this is how history has turned to be. Many people of different cultures have converged at one 'market place'. And this convergence has come when Man has even rebelled against pure rationalism. That there can be a singular meaning to life, as prescribed by a human, or a limited number of humans is no longer tenable.
Now everyone wants a share of the cake.
If you deny others 'the power to name', and knowing that all humans are intelligent and unique, then you'll be inviting rebellion.
And indeed this is the case in our institutions, even when Government has all along been premised on her coercive and punitive nature. The more you seek to execute the more people you find to execute. The more one uses the sword to suppress corruption the more he's resisted. Imagine the Tibetan monk who sets himself ablaze. What is he saying?
Would we rather have a world that has such incidences?
Indeed the laws may supply a common denominator, but they must be dynamic and flexible, and shouldn't discriminate minorities. Why? Because human life itself is the greatest good. Not GDP, not even military might.
And for your laws to be just, then they must be negotiated, and enforced collectively. How will this conversation be conducted?
Can one force people to have a conversation? Who is enlightened enough to rule exclusively? No one. Not in this world that has countless disciplines and interests.
Thus the conversation, and even consent must come out of a genuine, and free heart. And this is the preserve of Spirituality.
The 5 ideas you've outlined are in fact are one. They are about Man claiming maximum power and excellence. That is the common denominator for all peoples and cultures. It is the immovable center that you're seeking.
A strong and noble society that will be corruption free, will need a positive framework of conversation, and human to human interaction.
Look at the Palestinians, they live under a heavy hand, is this how it should be?
But if we consider our Spirituality in the light of a globalized world we are certain to come with just and 'corruption free societies'.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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Perhaps spiritualism is what it would take to transition a society from structure and high function to perfection - and when this zenith is reached, laws might no longer be necessary. There is only one problem - humans are at different levels of enlightenment. Humanity will never be perfect.There will always be inherently evil people among us; psychopaths; sociopaths; people of little or no compassion. If there is no deterrent, and we hope and rely on a shaky benevolence of our neighbors, what happens when they are devoid of it?
Not all people oppose rationalism. I am a staunch supporter.
You have lofty ideals @tycho, but you shed no light on how to move from here to there, only stating that we should be there. I seek gradual improvement, you seek perfection. You reject rationalism because it has no space for perfection. For instance you ask:
'who is enlightened enough to rule exclusively. No one'.
I ask - shall we ever get someone who is enlightened enough to rule exclusively? In absence of this what should we do? Who would determine what is enlightenment and how much of it is enough?
You are unhappy with this situation yet what is your solution? You didn't offer.
Rationale tells me that I have fairly workable order of things - I elect leaders every 5 years, there are laws that guard against avarice from them, they don't always work but things improve gradually and in a conventional way. I accept that because there are no perfect leaders.
What is maximum power and excellence? How do we claim it?
You said the govt is of a coercive and punitive nature, doesnt some forms of spiritualism exhibit the same - punishment for sins, even eternal damnation?
Corruption is a cancer. By living healthily and well, one might evade the disease - it would have been possible to build a close knit nation, foster trust among communities, be truly united soon after independence, but we missed this boat - the disease has beset the country and what we need now are surgeons and chemotherapy
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 10/27/2010 Posts: 26 Location: NBI
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mawinder wrote:As a beneficiary of corrupt deals,I support corruption.I have bribed cops,procurement officials,immigration officials,customs officials,etc I am who i am coz of corruption. like WTF
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/10/2008 Posts: 9,131 Location: Kanjo
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CLK wrote:Mukiri wrote:harrydre wrote:it's a cancer spread all over. when you have jokers like kajwang in immigration, this is what you get.  Is this where the blame lies? I read in Sunday's paper 'the top guy expected 200k' Who's this top guy? A friend of mine, a foreigner, used to head a department in one of the top companies in Kenya, i know guys used to ask suppliers for kick-backs using his name and the money never got to him, very sad. I prefer to plead with a traffic policeman aniachilie than bribe them, hope am doing my part. @mukiri, kajwang was just an example but they are all cut from the same cloth. i.am.back!!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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Njung'e wrote:Very true this.....I was chatting with an Ex-NSIS dude and i actually wanted to find out what happened to our once highly rated spy agency.In his view,which i hold to be true after looking around,is that to be an NSIS spy in this country,you must be well connected as the jobs are fairly well paid.Most of this officers drive good cars,have hefty alowances and have little time visiting the crannies and crime dens as they deem them low.Even if they did,they wouldn't fit well as they status wouldn't allow.What has happened then?.Information collection is so poor no wonder crime is spiraling out of hands.One other thing,unlike the previous spy agency (Special Branch),the current outfit was stripped of powers to edxecute and they relay or share information collected with the ever corrupt police force.You can safeely say therefore,that NSIS is as useless as a toothless bull-dog........IMHO,Kenya's police force,the spy agency,the traffic and the immigration departments, require complete and urgent surgery! I bow down in respect. This is exactly the situatio. NIS jobs are a preserve of the rich and connected, the very fellows who are already too satisfied with life to give a hoot about this stupid job. If I were Uhunye, I would establish a parallel Intel unit, pay it not too handsomely so as not to attract these rich idlers, and unapologetically gradually weaken and eventually phase out the fat kids in NIS. It should be based in locations/divisions/counties. With the tyranny of nos, this can be easily achieved even in parliament. We have weakened our provincial administration that consists of far more patriotic kenyans as far as I know, and now we are busy boxing shadows. Split hairs while at it people, split hairs. Too much democracy has destroyed this country. Na bado! TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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I once said Kajwang sold our country to the devil. I recovered in ICU.....they almost stoned me to death! Thank God for the internet! TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/17/2010 Posts: 572
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kamaug wrote:mawinder wrote:As a beneficiary of corrupt deals,I support corruption.I have bribed cops,procurement officials,immigration officials,customs officials,etc I am who i am coz of corruption. like mawinder's assertion is the stark reality that is the kenyan business world, personally i would never and have never bribed a cop but when it comes to business rusty machines have to be oiled and greased to work properly 'One headache for famous medieval holy people was that someone might murder you to acquire your body parts for the relics trade'
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