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Cost of Corruption #WestgateAttack
Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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ecstacy wrote:mawinder wrote:marko wrote:I honestly think some people need to be taken to the back of the building, be made to dig their own graves and shot once in the head. Twice would be a waste of bullets. I will do the shooting. Nimejitolea. This is Kenya,you will continue wishing while others are benefitting and if not careful...ask Lumumba how he was sacked or where the KRA officer investigating the lost gold from DRC is.You may also find where Munuhe went when he was close to arresting Kabuga.Also find out what happened to a police officer at the port,the police officer investigating allegations of gunshots on a Rangerover etc.Join them and dont be a spectator. You sold your soul. What was the price?.. NO NO NO. WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/25/2011 Posts: 2,103 Location: Nrb
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When people were busy pointing fingers at sec. forces for alleged stealing in westgate,I made a comment about our moral fabric- that if KDF stole,it is a refection of us -and i came under heavy artillery from people who were saying that if i am a thief,i should not call people thieves. But this thread seems to have less emotional holier than thou stances. For the information of @ magigi etal,i am not a beneficiary of corruption and I do not plan to be. I am happy
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:faa wrote:mawinder wrote:As a beneficiary of corrupt deals,I support corruption.I have bribed cops,procurement officials,immigration officials,customs officials,etc I am who i am coz of corruption. You are who you are because of corruption. What a shallow mind you have young man. At least @mawinder is honest. Am I what I am, because of corruption? Yes. Corruption is a part of my nature. But so is Divinity. Everyday I'm reminded to carry the cross of my corruption as I move towards my Divinity. Eradication of corruption is not a matter of laws, or system overhaul; it is about human redemption. It's not about politics and administration, but spirituality. Perhaps an illustration is appropriate. Why would a policeman on patrol take a 50 shillings bribe from a young man walking home in the evening, and in a crime prone area? Because there's agency in eradicating crime in the area, there's tacit agreement that there should be heightened vigilance and that all suspects should be treated with 'zeal'. So arrests are many (imagine the number of youth in a slum). But it's very difficult to be released from arrest without coughing out some cash bail or bribe for freedom. And because policemen are also human, and by weighing the case at hand, they may just strike a bargain with a suspect and charge freedom at a discount. That is, corruption also has real arguments in it's favor. Otherwise transactions would be more costly in terms of time and money, and efficiency in our organizations low. Their are too many laws and procedures, and charges eg. taxes, that under hand deals must creep in. The system is thus because it's animated by a spirit of profit, individualism, insecurity, and a general sense of lack of meaning, and apathy to death. To triumph over corruption we must emphasize faith in God over law, and to genuinely love others as we love ourselves. From your many writings, it appears to you, all problems are nails of different shapes, size and form, and spirituarity is the one hammer that will drive them home. I am sorry, not everyone subscribes to that notion. Your spirituality is not necessarily the same as the next man. There is little point in investing in nebulous and unstructured concepts over a varied and complex subject such as humanity; There was a time humanity was two individuals who did not lack, in God's garden, yet Lucifer still corrupted them. We are six billion, and in Kenya, 40 odd million, what hope we have? No. What we need is a modular, human approach to things, for instance, prosecution of instituional leaders for professional or criminal negligence;tracking what people achieve against set goals, jail corrupt officials, one after the other - to oversimplify, start running government more like the most efficient of the private sector management wise. Look at countries like Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway -quiet, stable, secure quasi-social states who are ruthlessly efficient at the management of their resources and country - also largely atheist/agnostic or whatever the term is. What we need is a strong precedent of following rules - because the alternative is unfathomable. Simple.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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quicksand wrote:tycho wrote:faa wrote:mawinder wrote:As a beneficiary of corrupt deals,I support corruption.I have bribed cops,procurement officials,immigration officials,customs officials,etc I am who i am coz of corruption. You are who you are because of corruption. What a shallow mind you have young man. At least @mawinder is honest. Am I what I am, because of corruption? Yes. Corruption is a part of my nature. But so is Divinity. Everyday I'm reminded to carry the cross of my corruption as I move towards my Divinity. Eradication of corruption is not a matter of laws, or system overhaul; it is about human redemption. It's not about politics and administration, but spirituality. Perhaps an illustration is appropriate. Why would a policeman on patrol take a 50 shillings bribe from a young man walking home in the evening, and in a crime prone area? Because there's agency in eradicating crime in the area, there's tacit agreement that there should be heightened vigilance and that all suspects should be treated with 'zeal'. So arrests are many (imagine the number of youth in a slum). But it's very difficult to be released from arrest without coughing out some cash bail or bribe for freedom. And because policemen are also human, and by weighing the case at hand, they may just strike a bargain with a suspect and charge freedom at a discount. That is, corruption also has real arguments in it's favor. Otherwise transactions would be more costly in terms of time and money, and efficiency in our organizations low. Their are too many laws and procedures, and charges eg. taxes, that under hand deals must creep in. The system is thus because it's animated by a spirit of profit, individualism, insecurity, and a general sense of lack of meaning, and apathy to death. To triumph over corruption we must emphasize faith in God over law, and to genuinely love others as we love ourselves. From your many writings, it appears to you, all problems are nails of different shapes, size and form, and spirituarity is the one hammer that will drive them home. I am sorry, not everyone subscribes to that notion. Your spirituality is not necessarily the same as the next man. There is little point in investing in nebulous and unstructured concepts over a varied and complex subject such as humanity; There was a time humanity was two individuals who did not lack, in God's garden, yet Lucifer still corrupted them. We are six billion, and in Kenya, 40 odd million, what hope we have? No. What we need is a modular, human approach to things, for instance, prosecution of instituional leaders for professional or criminal negligence;tracking what people achieve against set goals, jail corrupt officials, one after the other - to oversimplify, start running government more like the most efficient of the private sector management wise. Look at countries like Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway -quiet, stable, secure quasi-social states who are ruthlessly efficient at the management of their resources and country - also largely atheist/agnostic or whatever the term is. What we need is a strong precedent of following rules - because the alternative is unfathomable. Simple. Atheism/agnosticism is also Spirituality. And though the countries you've mentioned may be enviable, they're not so desirable when it comes to the question of freedom and tolerance. Spirituality is the cornerstone of humanity. The universal hammer. Even China depends on it.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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mawinder wrote:As a beneficiary of corrupt deals,I support corruption.I have bribed cops,procurement officials,immigration officials,customs officials,etc I am who i am coz of corruption. Watching Def Poetry, the following phrases stand out Empty pursuit of props Your existence is fractionally virginal like the slits of the whores you use to suit your feeble needs Temporary monetary gain in exchange for eternal pain while the stain of your false reality remains an ever imprinted actuality Sit you in a cell you'd probably cry a$$ nigga All strung out on delusional thinking Also read somewhere that 'Some people are so poor that all they have is money' I actually feel sorry for you. The shackles that bind you, the price you have to pay... and for what?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/11/2012 Posts: 5,222
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harrydre wrote:it's a cancer spread all over. when you have jokers like kajwang in immigration, this is what you get.  Is this where the blame lies? I read in Sunday's paper 'the top guy expected 200k' Who's this top guy?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/5/2010 Posts: 2,061 Location: Nairobi
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tycho wrote:quicksand wrote:tycho wrote:faa wrote:mawinder wrote:As a beneficiary of corrupt deals,I support corruption.I have bribed cops,procurement officials,immigration officials,customs officials,etc I am who i am coz of corruption. You are who you are because of corruption. What a shallow mind you have young man. At least @mawinder is honest. Am I what I am, because of corruption? Yes. Corruption is a part of my nature. But so is Divinity. Everyday I'm reminded to carry the cross of my corruption as I move towards my Divinity. Eradication of corruption is not a matter of laws, or system overhaul; it is about human redemption. It's not about politics and administration, but spirituality. Perhaps an illustration is appropriate. Why would a policeman on patrol take a 50 shillings bribe from a young man walking home in the evening, and in a crime prone area? Because there's agency in eradicating crime in the area, there's tacit agreement that there should be heightened vigilance and that all suspects should be treated with 'zeal'. So arrests are many (imagine the number of youth in a slum). But it's very difficult to be released from arrest without coughing out some cash bail or bribe for freedom. And because policemen are also human, and by weighing the case at hand, they may just strike a bargain with a suspect and charge freedom at a discount. That is, corruption also has real arguments in it's favor. Otherwise transactions would be more costly in terms of time and money, and efficiency in our organizations low. Their are too many laws and procedures, and charges eg. taxes, that under hand deals must creep in. The system is thus because it's animated by a spirit of profit, individualism, insecurity, and a general sense of lack of meaning, and apathy to death. To triumph over corruption we must emphasize faith in God over law, and to genuinely love others as we love ourselves. From your many writings, it appears to you, all problems are nails of different shapes, size and form, and spirituarity is the one hammer that will drive them home. I am sorry, not everyone subscribes to that notion. Your spirituality is not necessarily the same as the next man. There is little point in investing in nebulous and unstructured concepts over a varied and complex subject such as humanity; There was a time humanity was two individuals who did not lack, in God's garden, yet Lucifer still corrupted them. We are six billion, and in Kenya, 40 odd million, what hope we have? No. What we need is a modular, human approach to things, for instance, prosecution of instituional leaders for professional or criminal negligence;tracking what people achieve against set goals, jail corrupt officials, one after the other - to oversimplify, start running government more like the most efficient of the private sector management wise. Look at countries like Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway -quiet, stable, secure quasi-social states who are ruthlessly efficient at the management of their resources and country - also largely atheist/agnostic or whatever the term is. What we need is a strong precedent of following rules - because the alternative is unfathomable. Simple. Atheism/agnosticism is also Spirituality. And though the countries you've mentioned may be enviable, they're not so desirable when it comes to the question of freedom and tolerance. Spirituality is the cornerstone of humanity. The universal hammer. Even China depends on it. In one part, you say 'To triumph over corruption, we must emphasize faith in God over law', then in another you say 'atheism/agnoticism is also spirituality'. Last time I checked atheism or agnoticism, loosely defined, is not having faith in a God. So of these two spiritualities, which one will rid us of corruption? You are defending two diametrically opposed ideas as the solution to the problem, hence robbing yourself of clarity. China? Geo-politics say otherwise, not even you can be oblivious to that. China has the toughest laws governing its land, its crackdowns sharp and severe,...one fine example being Tibet (a very spiritual people I once read). In its trade policies, it exhibits little to none of the spiritualism you say they depend on; cause China will trade with the devil himself to keep their economic jaggernaut rolling. They are sharks. As long as oil, gas and industrial commodities keep coming, they don't care if they are dug out by seven year olds at gunpoint with the proceeds going to a corrupt, blood thirsty general. Wouldn't a people professing spirituality desist from doing business with tainted and bloodied regimes, or is spirituality selective? ...which reminds me, economic crimes, such as corruption and embezzlement, are capital offences in China. They shoot people for that stuff. Exporting ambivalence and corruption beyond its borders, yet cracking down harshly on vice by conventional (albeit draconian) laws within its own borders...your argument disintegrates, I see no spirituality here. ..
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/3/2012 Posts: 1,317
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Nabwire wrote:I completely agree. If Uhuru really wants to fight terrorism, he should start by fighting corrupt government officials. The top level officials should be investigated and charged in a court of law, tough prison sentences will send a message to the rest not to even think of asking for a bribe, let alone taking it. Otherwise if Uhuru lets things go on as they always have, foreigners will pack and leave, including multinational companies, in the long run the terror attacks will leave Kenya a shell of a country. The west will not have to issue travel advisories because western citizens will warn each other through word of mouth, the most powerful form, completely destroying Kenyan tourism and economy. Don't just fire the corrupt officials, put them in jail for long terms, then completely flush out current employees, and bring in new ones with sufficient training and who know that taking a bribe, even a small one, will land them in jail. This is arguably the most important ministry in Kenya. Can't happen in Kenya. That's why we have ICC for such countries.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/1/2011 Posts: 8,804 Location: Nairobi
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@quicksand, 'faith in God', and 'atheism/agnosticism' may both be Spirituality; but that doesn't make them 'equal'. In fact, you have even differentiated them. Now, how can one differentiate between two things without having a shared frame of reference? At least both are expressible only in terms of 'God'.
When you trace 'the idea' of 'God', you'll find 'ancestors', the 'unborn', and even 'spirits'. That is, worship of God, is the choice, and the experience of seeking of the 'agreement' of these elements I have outlined above. That's why the God of Israel is a God of covenants. And a covenant is made at the altar.
Atheism seeks no such covenants, at least in theory. And agnosticism doesn't know that such covenants exist, and neither does it know whether such covenants must be made in order to ensure that all humanity is free, and powerful, and happy.
Thomas Merton has shown a clear outline of the transition of Chinese Spirituality from 'Confucianism' to 'legalism' as attributed to Mao and the Communist party. Basically, it's a Spirituality that believes in the word of the Communist party. Even the Pope is secondary to their word. Even the Dalai Lama. And credit it to them that they are most dutiful in this Spirituality.
Just recently, I saw an item on al Jazeera saying that global warming is a consequence of human choice. How was, and is, the choice being made? Where is it being made? At the altar? In the boardroom?
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 846
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Mukiri wrote:harrydre wrote:it's a cancer spread all over. when you have jokers like kajwang in immigration, this is what you get. Is this where the blame lies? I read in Sunday's paper 'the top guy expected 200k' Who's this top guy? A friend of mine, a foreigner, used to head a department in one of the top companies in Kenya, i know guys used to ask suppliers for kick-backs using his name and the money never got to him, very sad. I prefer to plead with a traffic policeman aniachilie than bribe them, hope am doing my part.
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