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Bring our troops home
T-Bag
#31 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 11:07:03 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/25/2008
Posts: 510
Kenya should form a special "Mozart" to hunt and execute all sympathizers, financiers and affiliates within our borders. Jini ya maji off-course. F&*$#$ the human rights activists!
I AM trust in GOD, I AM belief in THYSELF
masukuma
#32 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 11:23:18 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,823
Location: Nairobi
Somalia simply needs a multistate solution. Kila clan ipatiwe nchi yake. Calling back our troupes is a as useful as fresh breath to a telephone operator if somalia remains as is!
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
tycho
#33 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 2:57:43 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Mjasirii wrote:
kysse wrote:
No ,Shame the enemy by not forsaking the mission.
The battle of securing our borders continues and I urge the forces to press on till the mission is accomplished.That's what soldiers do.

Don't encourage the KDF to take their eyes of the prize because of a hopeless people.
We are in somalia for the sake of Kenya,I doubt the terrorists will ever cherish peace but we musn't relent on our resolve.



Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


Perhaps then, good friends, you can show us when and how such a military position and strategy has ever won in any similar situation.

Beginning from our times, the U.S. and her allies have had very little to show in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Even when the British were governing East Africa they had an army go into Somalia, and had they been successful we wouldn't be having a post colonial army there.

One could even go as far back as the Peloponnesian war where Athens and Sparta were locked in a protracted war that only saw the decline of their civilization and the emergence of a new polity from without.

Let's not be carried away by instinctive solutions. We need to consider our strategy well and know that courage isn't about shedding blood but doing the right thing in whatever situation.

And here the right thing is to confront this matter from it's roots. At the heart of the Somali problem are the effects of global politics and aspirations being at conflict, and the effects of religious psychologies and philosophy. These root causes hardly merit the barrel of a gun.

@Masukuma has also reminded us of the clan factor in Somali politics. Military force and intervention is likely to be harmful in the long run for Kenya and her allies do not have the capacity to even ensure distributive justice through selfish interests like 'protecting our borders'. We may end up being used by different factions for their own selfish intentions instead. The last time I checked such situations had began to emerge in Kismayo. This would open possibilities for the Al Shabaab mutating. Remember the Al Shabaab are a mutation of an earlier and equally dangerous and fundamentalist group.

Finally, a prompt change of policy and pull out of Somalia would greatly boost our domestic policy. While so far the war against the Al Shabaab has unified our country, keeping it up may have negative effects in the mid and long terms. Firstly, we risk stagnation and even decline as a democracy if we let this war define us. Look at the U.S. After 9/11 her institutions and culture has become less Democratic and more militant. Cases of suicide among citizens have risen and global stability driven to the edge. Kenya may find herself in a similar situation.

Again, we should remember that we're facing other challenges like the cases at the ICC and PEV that need a reconciliatory and peaceful approach. The current war may end up denying our leadership the required framework for such healing and reconciliation.

While am not advocating for a hasty and an Al Shabaab instigated withdrawal, I argue for a bolstering of our policy and strategy to be more proactive and futuristic. We bear the task of regional and continental stability, and even global stability, and such responsibilities demand the best from us.



tycho
#34 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 3:11:31 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Mukiri wrote:
Rahatupu wrote:
Tokyo wrote:
A time has come when Kenyans should standup and demand our troops who are in harms way in hostile terrains of Somalia back. They have performed their duties with dedication and patriotism .every Kenyan is proud of them. Reasons are;
- this is ideological war which fanatics already think religion as the reasons. We know you can never win against such propaganda .
-the economical effects in a country like kenya is massive
-our leaders invaded a failed country without a clear plan on how to end the war
- we share a common border meaning very vulnerable to the fanatics obsessed and having a zeal to inflict destruction to life and property.
- due to hardships and less opportunities our people can easily be recruited complicating already severe situation .
- harmony of Kenyans is weak. That means in case another PEV 2013,(God forbid) the consequences and alshabab terrorists within, it will be a serious security problem.
- many of our officers are highly corrupt. Meaning easier for terrorism to operate.ethiopians despite being in Somalia for long have very few if any random attacks. Reasons their people are individually highly patriotic and love for their country.
etc...
I suggest:
- pull the troops out immediately
-create a buffer zone in the border . Like 50 km and deploy the army currently in Somalia .
- close all refugees camp in kenya. Daadab etc. build refugees camp in the southern Somalia . Let it be secured by international community and others involved .
- have a physical address of all properties and people in kenya.
- land plots and buildings in kenya owned by foreigners should be scrutinized again.
-all banks operating within Kenyans border must be vigilant especially because there might be evidence that terrorists are operating and transacting.read HSBC issues in US
-Somalia should be divided.kenya can start by recognizing the peaceful
Somali land . Use Her diplomacy to campaign for dividing Somalia .
-as a long term measure, kenya should introduce an IC identity card to curb forgery.


in a nutshell Cowardly Tycho.

d'oh! Are they the same?


Indeed, 'are they the same'? They have some things in common no doubt. Let me hazard an example (lol); both would agree that a traditional African perspective would be more helpful here in contrast to what both the Islamists and 'Westerners' seem to be offering.

The Afrikana were not only peaceful and prosperous in their own fashion, but their idea of 'empire' was so different that political units could be as varied and as free as possible.

Under an Afrikana philosophy it would be even easy to follow @Masukuma's suggestion!
murchr
#35 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 3:15:53 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
tycho wrote:
Mjasirii wrote:
kysse wrote:
No ,Shame the enemy by not forsaking the mission.
The battle of securing our borders continues and I urge the forces to press on till the mission is accomplished.That's what soldiers do.

Don't encourage the KDF to take their eyes of the prize because of a hopeless people.
We are in somalia for the sake of Kenya,I doubt the terrorists will ever cherish peace but we musn't relent on our resolve.



Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


Perhaps then, good friends, you can show us when and how such a military position and strategy has ever won in any similar situation.

Beginning from our times, the U.S. and her allies have had very little to show in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Even when the British were governing East Africa they had an army go into Somalia, and had they been successful we wouldn't be having a post colonial army there.

One could even go as far back as the Peloponnesian war where Athens and Sparta were locked in a protracted war that only saw the decline of their civilization and the emergence of a new polity from without.

Let's not be carried away by instinctive solutions. We need to consider our strategy well and know that courage isn't about shedding blood but doing the right thing in whatever situation.

And here the right thing is to confront this matter from it's roots. At the heart of the Somali problem are the effects of global politics and aspirations being at conflict, and the effects of religious psychologies and philosophy. These root causes hardly merit the barrel of a gun.

@Masukuma has also reminded us of the clan factor in Somali politics. Military force and intervention is likely to be harmful in the long run for Kenya and her allies do not have the capacity to even ensure distributive justice through selfish interests like 'protecting our borders'. We may end up being used by different factions for their own selfish intentions instead. The last time I checked such situations had began to emerge in Kismayo. This would open possibilities for the Al Shabaab mutating. Remember the Al Shabaab are a mutation of an earlier and equally dangerous and fundamentalist group.

Finally, a prompt change of policy and pull out of Somalia would greatly boost our domestic policy. While so far the war against the Al Shabaab has unified our country, keeping it up may have negative effects in the mid and long terms. Firstly, we risk stagnation and even decline as a democracy if we let this war define us. Look at the U.S. After 9/11 her institutions and culture has become less Democratic and more militant. Cases of suicide among citizens have risen and global stability driven to the edge. Kenya may find herself in a similar situation.

Again, we should remember that we're facing other challenges like the cases at the ICC and PEV that need a reconciliatory and peaceful approach. The current war may end up denying our leadership the required framework for such healing and reconciliation.

While am not advocating for a hasty and an Al Shabaab instigated withdrawal, I argue for a bolstering of our policy and strategy to be more proactive and futuristic. We bear the task of regional and continental stability, and even global stability, and such responsibilities demand the best from us.





I get sick whenever i hear of people mentioning Afghanistan and Iraq as examples. The US was never threatened the way we are...no. They went to Afghan to control the opium business and to Iraq purely for oil. nothing to do with terror. We here face a real threat. Alshabab has to be eradicated if we want to enjoy the peace we all desire, taking our troops out is giving them a free way to kidnap us when they want money - physical harm, to control the port of kismayu thus killing business in the port of Msa - economic, and pass disease to us and since they will ensure people are not immunized or treated - social. Hell, those dimwits have turned Somalia into a bear land no trees the environmental impact is bound to spread here. Unlike the Iraq Afghan scenario we face a real threat and its time we started thinking.

This thing will not only end by getting rid of them but by cutting the source of money, and supply of ammunition.

And by the way, you support them if you use those forex bureaus in eastleigh, use their shipping companies to import goods.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
tycho
#36 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 3:33:33 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
murchr wrote:
tycho wrote:
Mjasirii wrote:
kysse wrote:
No ,Shame the enemy by not forsaking the mission.
The battle of securing our borders continues and I urge the forces to press on till the mission is accomplished.That's what soldiers do.

Don't encourage the KDF to take their eyes of the prize because of a hopeless people.
We are in somalia for the sake of Kenya,I doubt the terrorists will ever cherish peace but we musn't relent on our resolve.



Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


Perhaps then, good friends, you can show us when and how such a military position and strategy has ever won in any similar situation.

Beginning from our times, the U.S. and her allies have had very little to show in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Even when the British were governing East Africa they had an army go into Somalia, and had they been successful we wouldn't be having a post colonial army there.

One could even go as far back as the Peloponnesian war where Athens and Sparta were locked in a protracted war that only saw the decline of their civilization and the emergence of a new polity from without.

Let's not be carried away by instinctive solutions. We need to consider our strategy well and know that courage isn't about shedding blood but doing the right thing in whatever situation.

And here the right thing is to confront this matter from it's roots. At the heart of the Somali problem are the effects of global politics and aspirations being at conflict, and the effects of religious psychologies and philosophy. These root causes hardly merit the barrel of a gun.

@Masukuma has also reminded us of the clan factor in Somali politics. Military force and intervention is likely to be harmful in the long run for Kenya and her allies do not have the capacity to even ensure distributive justice through selfish interests like 'protecting our borders'. We may end up being used by different factions for their own selfish intentions instead. The last time I checked such situations had began to emerge in Kismayo. This would open possibilities for the Al Shabaab mutating. Remember the Al Shabaab are a mutation of an earlier and equally dangerous and fundamentalist group.

Finally, a prompt change of policy and pull out of Somalia would greatly boost our domestic policy. While so far the war against the Al Shabaab has unified our country, keeping it up may have negative effects in the mid and long terms. Firstly, we risk stagnation and even decline as a democracy if we let this war define us. Look at the U.S. After 9/11 her institutions and culture has become less Democratic and more militant. Cases of suicide among citizens have risen and global stability driven to the edge. Kenya may find herself in a similar situation.

Again, we should remember that we're facing other challenges like the cases at the ICC and PEV that need a reconciliatory and peaceful approach. The current war may end up denying our leadership the required framework for such healing and reconciliation.

While am not advocating for a hasty and an Al Shabaab instigated withdrawal, I argue for a bolstering of our policy and strategy to be more proactive and futuristic. We bear the task of regional and continental stability, and even global stability, and such responsibilities demand the best from us.





I get sick whenever i hear of people mentioning Afghanistan and Iraq as examples. The US was never threatened the way we are...no. They went to Afghan to control the opium business and to Iraq purely for oil. nothing to do with terror. We here face a real threat. Alshabab has to be eradicated if we want to enjoy the peace we all desire, taking our troops out is giving them a free way to kidnap us when they want money - physical harm, to control the port of kismayu thus killing business in the port of Msa - economic, and pass disease to us and since they will ensure people are not immunized or treated - social. Hell, those dimwits have turned Somalia into a bear land no trees the environmental impact is bound to spread here. Unlike the Iraq Afghan scenario we face a real threat and its time we started thinking.

This thing will not only end by getting rid of them but by cutting the source of money, and supply of ammunition.

And by the way, you support them if you use those forex bureaus in eastleigh, use their shipping companies to import goods.


Well, I'd be hesitant to say 9/11 isn't similar to the Westgate attacks, or the invasion of Kuwait unsimilar to tourist kidnappings.

And if your assertions are true, don't they then render our military position even weaker and futile if we can't balance our accounts with Somali resources?

I see the conditions are similar either way.
murchr
#37 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 6:03:41 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
tycho wrote:
murchr wrote:
tycho wrote:
Mjasirii wrote:
kysse wrote:
No ,Shame the enemy by not forsaking the mission.
The battle of securing our borders continues and I urge the forces to press on till the mission is accomplished.That's what soldiers do.

Don't encourage the KDF to take their eyes of the prize because of a hopeless people.
We are in somalia for the sake of Kenya,I doubt the terrorists will ever cherish peace but we musn't relent on our resolve.



Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


Perhaps then, good friends, you can show us when and how such a military position and strategy has ever won in any similar situation.

Beginning from our times, the U.S. and her allies have had very little to show in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Even when the British were governing East Africa they had an army go into Somalia, and had they been successful we wouldn't be having a post colonial army there.

One could even go as far back as the Peloponnesian war where Athens and Sparta were locked in a protracted war that only saw the decline of their civilization and the emergence of a new polity from without.

Let's not be carried away by instinctive solutions. We need to consider our strategy well and know that courage isn't about shedding blood but doing the right thing in whatever situation.

And here the right thing is to confront this matter from it's roots. At the heart of the Somali problem are the effects of global politics and aspirations being at conflict, and the effects of religious psychologies and philosophy. These root causes hardly merit the barrel of a gun.

@Masukuma has also reminded us of the clan factor in Somali politics. Military force and intervention is likely to be harmful in the long run for Kenya and her allies do not have the capacity to even ensure distributive justice through selfish interests like 'protecting our borders'. We may end up being used by different factions for their own selfish intentions instead. The last time I checked such situations had began to emerge in Kismayo. This would open possibilities for the Al Shabaab mutating. Remember the Al Shabaab are a mutation of an earlier and equally dangerous and fundamentalist group.

Finally, a prompt change of policy and pull out of Somalia would greatly boost our domestic policy. While so far the war against the Al Shabaab has unified our country, keeping it up may have negative effects in the mid and long terms. Firstly, we risk stagnation and even decline as a democracy if we let this war define us. Look at the U.S. After 9/11 her institutions and culture has become less Democratic and more militant. Cases of suicide among citizens have risen and global stability driven to the edge. Kenya may find herself in a similar situation.

Again, we should remember that we're facing other challenges like the cases at the ICC and PEV that need a reconciliatory and peaceful approach. The current war may end up denying our leadership the required framework for such healing and reconciliation.

While am not advocating for a hasty and an Al Shabaab instigated withdrawal, I argue for a bolstering of our policy and strategy to be more proactive and futuristic. We bear the task of regional and continental stability, and even global stability, and such responsibilities demand the best from us.





I get sick whenever i hear of people mentioning Afghanistan and Iraq as examples. The US was never threatened the way we are...no. They went to Afghan to control the opium business and to Iraq purely for oil. nothing to do with terror. We here face a real threat. Alshabab has to be eradicated if we want to enjoy the peace we all desire, taking our troops out is giving them a free way to kidnap us when they want money - physical harm, to control the port of kismayu thus killing business in the port of Msa - economic, and pass disease to us and since they will ensure people are not immunized or treated - social. Hell, those dimwits have turned Somalia into a bear land no trees the environmental impact is bound to spread here. Unlike the Iraq Afghan scenario we face a real threat and its time we started thinking.

This thing will not only end by getting rid of them but by cutting the source of money, and supply of ammunition.

And by the way, you support them if you use those forex bureaus in eastleigh, use their shipping companies to import goods.


Well, I'd be hesitant to say 9/11 isn't similar to the Westgate attacks, or the invasion of Kuwait unsimilar to tourist kidnappings.

And if your assertions are true, don't they then render our military position even weaker and futile if we can't balance our accounts with Somali resources?

I see the conditions are similar either way.


My friend America doesnt go to "war" where there are no resources...pay back...note they always pass the bill, Kuwait had to pay in oil and the opening of their market - yes you'll get McDonalds in Kuwait, so is Iraq. Libya also got its bill, the assets they had in the US were frozen. If we dont eliminate this shabab we're bound to lose big time...read oil found in NE Kenya and the minerals at the coast.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
tycho
#38 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 7:26:51 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@murchr, after making the above posts, I went back to sleep, and I found myself dreaming of Sun Tzu talking to me about the art of war. Lol.

Mainly it was about the General who knows both himself and the enemy alike. In the dream I saw how such a general would win all his battles, and no doubt, many without recourse to violence. I was looking at the perfect General who had the 'mandate of heaven'.

Then I woke up to find your post. A post which alas, I find describing the General who I find to be deficient in self knowledge, and consequently not knowledgeable of the enemy.

First, what is the greatest resource in 'up' Kenya? It's the people, not the oil. Not water.

What strategy has been employed for, and to the people of 'up' Kenya? Has it won them to the Kenyan government?

If the answer to the above question is 'no', then not even oil can be protected by going to war. So is the converse true. Winning over the people of 'up' Kenya will definitely lead to other victories, and it's victory that we want.

So don't get angry with me thinking that I don't want us to win, on the contrary, we are thinking together so that we can win together.


Muriel
#39 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 9:27:48 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 11/19/2009
Posts: 3,142

I agree with Tycho, again! lol. I am getting to like this 'flow'.

I did my civic duty:
1. I was told not to speculate - I didn't.
2. I was told to avoid discussing the event - I didn't.
3. I was told to do etc - I did them.
4. I was told not to do etc - I did not do them.

It then occurred to me we have become 'Americans'.

We behave and live like Americans:
We are evangelical and charismatic - just like them.
We believe our army will deal with threats, unrelentingly - just like them.

Then I read This article and This


I concluded we are worshiping America. That's the unchanging bottom line.

tycho
#40 Posted : Wednesday, September 25, 2013 12:42:50 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Muriel wrote:

I agree with Tycho, again! lol. I am getting to like this 'flow'.

I did my civic duty:
1. I was told not to speculate - I didn't.
2. I was told to avoid discussing the event - I didn't.
3. I was told to do etc - I did them.
4. I was told not to do etc - I did not do them.

It then occurred to me we have become 'Americans'.

We behave and live like Americans:
We are evangelical and charismatic - just like them.
We believe our army will deal with threats, unrelentingly - just like them.

Then I read This article and This


I concluded we are worshiping America. That's the unchanging bottom line.



The 'unpeople' are the vampires. Created by other vampires.

Why should we insist on games of death?

If only swords were turned to ploughs.
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