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Westgate aftermath – What to do
alma
#21 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 6:47:47 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Sorry but new laws will never help. Community wide sweeps never helped anyone. Even after we changed the traffic laws, mutotho laws the problem remained the same.

The people supposed to ensuring the law is followed are law breakers to the core.

All these other issues will never work if you can't trust a policeman with information let alone your life. Law enforcement is the beginning of a civilised society. Not creating new laws when the old ones have never been implemented.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
maka
#22 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 6:52:49 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
Sorry but new laws will never help. Community wide sweeps never helped anyone. Even after we changed the traffic laws, mutotho laws the problem remained the same.

The people supposed to ensuring the law is followed are law breakers to the core.

All these other issues will never work if you can't trust a policeman with information let alone your life. Law enforcement is the beginning of a civilised society. Not creating new laws when the old ones have never been implemented.

Then how can the police force be reformed surely this guys are just too much...
possunt quia posse videntur
AlphDoti
#23 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:38:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
First I should say, what happened at Westgate is so sad.

Secondly, we should not make this a religous issue
We should treat every criminal involved in these acts as a criminal and must face law, regardless of religion.
We should not make this a religous issue.
Muslims do not support these attacks, the faith condems killing of innocent.

Thirdly, turn everybody into partner in the war on terror
...let us also maintain that the war on terror is not a war on Islam or on Muslims.
I say this because there are still those who are involved in the war on terror but have not overcome their suspicion and mistrust of Muslims.
They need to change their perception and turn Muslims into Partners in the war on terror.
IT'd
#24 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:40:51 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 111
Location: Nairobi
if of course we cant end corruption and this 'modo wa nyoba' of before i was kenyan,i was a nilote/bantu/semite then kyuk/lou/kale/somali nonsense then there is nothing we can do,of course which is propagated and encouraged by our leaders if at all you can notice how we have been united in times of tragedy only to fall into this batshit insane cocoons during elections....gichangi must go though and the whole old school NSIS....moha and namu have cleArly shown they are better than this whole multi-million funded agency.
AlphDoti
#25 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:51:41 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/20/2008
Posts: 6,275
Location: Kenya
Much Know wrote:
ZZE123 wrote:
KDF should move to Eastleigh and comb the place door to door for illegal immigrants and weapons.

Kenya Defence forces should not have a bearing presence at home or over fellow citizens, that is very good policy, actually the ideal is KDF should never have to use force/be deployed inside Kenya, this should be the very last time we should see them in action inside the country if we are really serious about security, it is total and absolute nonsense to start asking/begging KDF to continue playing policing roles within the country, absolute nonsense! It should be an abomination, even advanced countries like US have a national guard who cannot really mix with the army, they even have F18 and and other advanced jets for internal jobs, but as a rule, a countries defense forces should not mix in raia issues, except under extreme and unimaginable/terrible circumstances like we found ourselves in, internal affairs need a different force/service, call it police.

@Much Know Applause Applause

Oh @ZZE123, are they guilty just because the majority are Muslims?

I agree that we have to fight this
in all possible ways

But not through:
- Bypassing the normal rules of evidence
- Officially making secret about detentions
- Presumption of Guilt
- Abuse of Human rights of the detainees

If any Kenyan has been put in prison
and there is no evidence that we have seen, we have to support him or her.
We cannot say he must have done something wrong, because then we can go to sleep, eat our own food, and enjoy ourselves and forget that one of us.

We have to say they must be treated as suspect
and evidence produced, Because the rule is that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

But just to utter such words
...as you have said, because it is not our son. Because it is not our daughter. And we do not have to see them physically. We just say like that?

I pray for Kenya
I pray for Kenyans, and safety of everybody. May God help us, amen.

Let us support the fight for terrorism
And let us not allow oppression by other nations or administration from within.
Mukiri
#26 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:54:45 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
maka wrote:
alma wrote:
Sorry but new laws will never help. Community wide sweeps never helped anyone. Even after we changed the traffic laws, mutotho laws the problem remained the same.

The people supposed to ensuring the law is followed are law breakers to the core.

All these other issues will never work if you can't trust a policeman with information let alone your life. Law enforcement is the beginning of a civilised society. Not creating new laws when the old ones have never been implemented.

Then how can the police force be reformed surely this guys are just too much...

I find it rather appalling that we are quick to critic our police force, even go so far as comparing them to firearm holders that went in to rescue people.

First, I'm of the opinion that said firearm holders had training, some extensive training. Didn't we have an SAS officer etc? We can't be overtly judgmental on our officers, who might not have been trained for anything remotely close to that.

And second, those who are familiar with red tape and chains of command would understand the coppers need for guidance/intelligence before doing anything rush. We already have incidences of someone saying that coppers might have shot her husband.

Third is the corruption aspect. I don't think reforms is the way to go. Those who've traveled to developed countries will tell you how challenging it is to bribe a cop. Why? Their standard of living is good. If I was to give a suggestion, it would be directed to prisoners. Work those prisoners. From the quarry to building lavish houses for our coppers. Tired prisoners will also reduce the spread of HIV in prison.

Thereafter, let there be incentives. The lowest paid copper should be able to comfortably buy his own car, take his kids to decent schools etc. Make being a law enforcement officer so attractive that one would not want to jeopardies the perks that come with it. That will be a good beginning to stamping out corruption in the force.

Proverbs 19:21
murchr
#27 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:57:16 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
I think its time we stopped pointing fingers at others. Trouble lies within our selves, we never report anything, not even anonymously how many times have you walked out of something fishy that you have seen? How many times have you bribed that immigration official to get a passport or even the police? We have to instill a culture within ourselves of being a brothers keeper..these ammunition passed thru someone, someone rented/sold out their car to some people he had doubts about. And the big one MONEY LAUNDERING
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Rankaz13
#28 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 7:59:44 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 5/21/2013
Posts: 2,841
Location: Here
Urgently close down ALL the refugee camps in northern Kenya. Let UNHCRassist them from within their own country. Those camps have been fertile recruitment grounds.

Lean really hard on those easich fellows to reveal the bad apples in their midst. Close down their businesses if we must if that's what it'll take to get the info.

Stop dilly-dallying and shuffling around officers who don't perform, simply sack them. I know a fellow, quite senior in the provincial admin. Every single station he has served in, he has had to be transferred due to his connivance in allowing immigrants from Somalia, his most recent posting having been Garissa. Why we keep transferring such an officer around beats me. Simply sack the damn fool and take him to court to answer for his misdeeds.

Endeleza mjadala...
Life is like playing a violin solo in public and learning the instrument as one goes on.
Mukiri
#29 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 8:01:26 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
AlphDoti wrote:
First I should say, what happened at Westgate is so sad.

Secondly, we should not make this a religous issue
We should treat every criminal involved in these acts as a criminal and must face law, regardless of religion.
We should not make this a religous issue.
Muslims do not support these attacks, the faith condems killing of innocent.

Thirdly, turn everybody into partner in the war on terror
...let us also maintain that the war on terror is not a war on Islam or on Muslims.
I say this because there are still those who are involved in the war on terror but have not overcome their suspicion and mistrust of Muslims.
They need to change their perception and turn Muslims into Partners in the war on terror.

I say this in jest, but are you not the one who's been crying Christian this, Christian that; Pointing out ills done by people and saying that since they are not muslims, then its Christianity that makes them do what they do? This has been your number 1 strategy in your quest to recruit muslims here.

Now you seek to distance yourself from the criminals who clearly cited Islam as the reason why they did what they did?

I would much rather you compare suras in the Quran. Jihad vs love as portrayed in Islam. This escapism doesn't hold much water.

Proverbs 19:21
Mukiri
#30 Posted : Tuesday, September 24, 2013 8:07:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
Rankaz13 wrote:
Urgently close down ALL the refugee camps in northern Kenya. Let UNHCRassist them from within their own country. Those camps have been fertile recruitment grounds.

Lean really hard on those easich fellows to reveal the bad apples in their midst. Close down their businesses if we must if that's what it'll take to get the info.

Stop dilly-dallying and shuffling around officers who don't perform, simply sack them. I know a fellow, quite senior in the provincial admin. Every single station he head served in, he had had to be transferred due to his connivance in allowing illegal immigrants from Somalia, his most recent posting having been garish. Why we keep transferring such an officer around beats me. Simply sack the damn fool and take him to court to answer for his misdeeds.

Endeleza mjadala...

I'm of the opinion that refugees are much as victims as we are. They who would much rather flee than bandwagon with terrorists. Take for instance PEV, or the Ugandan Kony. Kenyans, victims, chose to flee. Picture yourself fleeing, then having your host(in your suggestion) sending you back to die?

Let's resort to decisions free from emotions. Decisions that we can live with in years to come.

Proverbs 19:21
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