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Kenya Economy Watch
mkeiyd
#361 Posted : Monday, September 09, 2013 12:29:02 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
murchr wrote:

On textile. I dont understand why you get all personal when arguing out facts, anyway...to say that the mitumba industry dint kill the local textile industry is to be blind beyond words. Ati I sound like Ktirubi...well may be...you talk about value for money in mitumba, why cant we have value in what we make? Are we such dunderheads that we cant get designers who can make something that can be appreciated by us and the rest of the world? Cant we make a garment that would last? The jobs that can be created right from the production of cotton to he selling of whatever cloth cannot be ignored.



@murchr, Ever taken a look at those mutumba labels? Quite few have 'Made in US/UK/Italy/France etc. They read China, , , and then some South East Asian countries.

There's a reason why the first world is dressed by the Asian countries, with quality garments.

If we strive to make quality garments locally, the costs will outweigh the benefits.
The quality that Chinese export to US/UK/Canada is not the same that comes to Africa or consumed in China.

The surest way to go is AGOA, Americans have the purchasing power to buy quality products from Kenya which very few Kenyans can afford.

The issue of mitumba clothes is more complex than it is appreciated by any lobbyist. The real threat to Kenya's textile industry is the importation of cheap sub-standard products from China and South East Asia.
The sort of clothes that fade in two months time.The shirts, the women suits [i abhor them].

As it stands, the cheap brand new imports are the greatest threat to our textile industry. Atleast mtumba brings in punitive taxes to the gov't, that cannot be said about brand new cheap imports.

Mutumba is in no direct competition with "Made in Kenya" apparel.
If your walk into any shop on Biashara Street selling baby stuff, how many items can 1,000 bob buy? How many items can that get you in Gikomba?
Use them for 3 months [from Biz street and the other from Giks] and compare the quality.
Value for money.
Same as using local contractors to do shoody job on our roads in the name of local.
What is better? Value for money or local no matter the quality?

On the flip side,a country that struggles to feed itself, is it not wiser to grow food crops, rather than cotton?
Do we import Sugar? Rice? Maize? Eggs?
Do we have mitumba sugar? rice? maize? egg?
Why do we import?
Why are the imports cheaper?
How much cotton do we need to dress Kenya? 90,000 tons on average per year?
How many people will the textiles industry employ?
How much does an EPZ employee earn now?
How much does a mtumba retailer earn now?

Let's not bite every bait thrown our way, textile industry is NOT a strategic sector and push to kill mtumba AS THINGS STAND, will be detrimental.
murchr
#362 Posted : Monday, September 09, 2013 2:12:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:

On textile. I dont understand why you get all personal when arguing out facts, anyway...to say that the mitumba industry dint kill the local textile industry is to be blind beyond words. Ati I sound like Ktirubi...well may be...you talk about value for money in mitumba, why cant we have value in what we make? Are we such dunderheads that we cant get designers who can make something that can be appreciated by us and the rest of the world? Cant we make a garment that would last? The jobs that can be created right from the production of cotton to he selling of whatever cloth cannot be ignored.



@murchr, Ever taken a look at those mutumba labels? Quite few have 'Made in US/UK/Italy/France etc. They read China, , , and then some South East Asian countries.

There's a reason why the first world is dressed by the Asian countries, with quality garments.

If we strive to make quality garments locally, the costs will outweigh the benefits.
The quality that Chinese export to US/UK/Canada is not the same that comes to Africa or consumed in China.

The surest way to go is AGOA, Americans have the purchasing power to buy quality products from Kenya which very few Kenyans can afford.

The issue of mitumba clothes is more complex than it is appreciated by any lobbyist. The real threat to Kenya's textile industry is the importation of cheap sub-standard products from China and South East Asia.
The sort of clothes that fade in two months time.The shirts, the women suits [i abhor them].

As it stands, the cheap brand new imports are the greatest threat to our textile industry. Atleast mtumba brings in punitive taxes to the gov't, that cannot be said about brand new cheap imports.

Mutumba is in no direct competition with "Made in Kenya" apparel.
If your walk into any shop on Biashara Street selling baby stuff, how many items can 1,000 bob buy? How many items can that get you in Gikomba?
Use them for 3 months [from Biz street and the other from Giks] and compare the quality.
Value for money.
Same as using local contractors to do shoody job on our roads in the name of local.
What is better? Value for money or local no matter the quality?

On the flip side,a country that struggles to feed itself, is it not wiser to grow food crops, rather than cotton?
Do we import Sugar? Rice? Maize? Eggs?
Do we have mitumba sugar? rice? maize? egg?
Why do we import?
Why are the imports cheaper?
How much cotton do we need to dress Kenya? 90,000 tons on average per year?
How many people will the textiles industry employ?
How much does an EPZ employee earn now?
How much does a mtumba retailer earn now?

Let's not bite every bait thrown our way, textile industry is NOT a strategic sector and push to kill mtumba AS THINGS STAND, will be detrimental.


Mutumba ni mutumba doesnt matter if its from China or wherever and my arguement was not about where the cloth was made rather we should get out of this mentality that we cant make anything valuable at a cost that all can afford. Why cant we yet this is where costs could be cheaper because of cheap labor? I go back to policies, the business env should be favorable from the beginning of production to the end product.

And by the way....buy Made is America is a very huge campaign in the US ask anyone there ati AGOA - nguo? Sell to Americans what they don't have...they are taking back industries and everything else they can do. They have to raise the employment numbers

And just to note The original argument was about cement and textile industries
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
mkeiyd
#363 Posted : Monday, September 09, 2013 5:30:02 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
murchr wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:

On textile. I dont understand why you get all personal when arguing out facts, anyway...to say that the mitumba industry dint kill the local textile industry is to be blind beyond words. Ati I sound like Ktirubi...well may be...you talk about value for money in mitumba, why cant we have value in what we make? Are we such dunderheads that we cant get designers who can make something that can be appreciated by us and the rest of the world? Cant we make a garment that would last? The jobs that can be created right from the production of cotton to he selling of whatever cloth cannot be ignored.



@murchr, Ever taken a look at those mutumba labels? Quite few have 'Made in US/UK/Italy/France etc. They read China, , , and then some South East Asian countries.

There's a reason why the first world is dressed by the Asian countries, with quality garments.

If we strive to make quality garments locally, the costs will outweigh the benefits.
The quality that Chinese export to US/UK/Canada is not the same that comes to Africa or consumed in China.

The surest way to go is AGOA, Americans have the purchasing power to buy quality products from Kenya which very few Kenyans can afford.

The issue of mitumba clothes is more complex than it is appreciated by any lobbyist. The real threat to Kenya's textile industry is the importation of cheap sub-standard products from China and South East Asia.
The sort of clothes that fade in two months time.The shirts, the women suits [i abhor them].

As it stands, the cheap brand new imports are the greatest threat to our textile industry. Atleast mtumba brings in punitive taxes to the gov't, that cannot be said about brand new cheap imports.

Mutumba is in no direct competition with "Made in Kenya" apparel.
If your walk into any shop on Biashara Street selling baby stuff, how many items can 1,000 bob buy? How many items can that get you in Gikomba?
Use them for 3 months [from Biz street and the other from Giks] and compare the quality.
Value for money.
Same as using local contractors to do shoody job on our roads in the name of local.
What is better? Value for money or local no matter the quality?

On the flip side,a country that struggles to feed itself, is it not wiser to grow food crops, rather than cotton?
Do we import Sugar? Rice? Maize? Eggs?
Do we have mitumba sugar? rice? maize? egg?
Why do we import?
Why are the imports cheaper?
How much cotton do we need to dress Kenya? 90,000 tons on average per year?
How many people will the textiles industry employ?
How much does an EPZ employee earn now?
How much does a mtumba retailer earn now?


Let's not bite every bait thrown our way, textile industry is NOT a strategic sector and push to kill mtumba AS THINGS STAND, will be detrimental.


Mutumba ni mutumba doesnt matter if its from China or wherever and my arguement was not about where the cloth was made rather we should get out of this mentality that we cant make anything valuable at a cost that all can afford. Why cant we yet this is where costs could be cheaper because of cheap labor? I go back to policies, the business env should be favorable from the beginning of production to the end product.

And by the way....buy Made is America is a very huge campaign in the US ask anyone there ati AGOA - nguo? Sell to Americans what they don't have...they are taking back industries and everything else they can do. They have to raise the employment numbers

And just to note The original argument was about cement and textile industries


@murchr, Mtumba clothing falls under textiles.
Check the part in blue,that answers why we have mtumba clothing.
There is very little mtumba from China. The mtumba from the developed world happens to have been made in China [majority of it].
Americans are focusing on hi-tech products. Those are kind of products that they'll be competitive in, Chinese cheap labor won't beat that.
Common clothing is NOT hi-tech by any measure.

My argument is, let's start with the basics before we go clothing on EMPTY stomachs as well as EMPTY pockets.
murchr
#364 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 2:40:35 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:

On textile. I dont understand why you get all personal when arguing out facts, anyway...to say that the mitumba industry dint kill the local textile industry is to be blind beyond words. Ati I sound like Ktirubi...well may be...you talk about value for money in mitumba, why cant we have value in what we make? Are we such dunderheads that we cant get designers who can make something that can be appreciated by us and the rest of the world? Cant we make a garment that would last? The jobs that can be created right from the production of cotton to he selling of whatever cloth cannot be ignored.



@murchr, Ever taken a look at those mutumba labels? Quite few have 'Made in US/UK/Italy/France etc. They read China, , , and then some South East Asian countries.

There's a reason why the first world is dressed by the Asian countries, with quality garments.

If we strive to make quality garments locally, the costs will outweigh the benefits.
The quality that Chinese export to US/UK/Canada is not the same that comes to Africa or consumed in China.

The surest way to go is AGOA, Americans have the purchasing power to buy quality products from Kenya which very few Kenyans can afford.

The issue of mitumba clothes is more complex than it is appreciated by any lobbyist. The real threat to Kenya's textile industry is the importation of cheap sub-standard products from China and South East Asia.
The sort of clothes that fade in two months time.The shirts, the women suits [i abhor them].

As it stands, the cheap brand new imports are the greatest threat to our textile industry. Atleast mtumba brings in punitive taxes to the gov't, that cannot be said about brand new cheap imports.

Mutumba is in no direct competition with "Made in Kenya" apparel.
If your walk into any shop on Biashara Street selling baby stuff, how many items can 1,000 bob buy? How many items can that get you in Gikomba?
Use them for 3 months [from Biz street and the other from Giks] and compare the quality.
Value for money.
Same as using local contractors to do shoody job on our roads in the name of local.
What is better? Value for money or local no matter the quality?

On the flip side,a country that struggles to feed itself, is it not wiser to grow food crops, rather than cotton?
Do we import Sugar? Rice? Maize? Eggs?
Do we have mitumba sugar? rice? maize? egg?
Why do we import?
Why are the imports cheaper?
How much cotton do we need to dress Kenya? 90,000 tons on average per year?
How many people will the textiles industry employ?
How much does an EPZ employee earn now?
How much does a mtumba retailer earn now?


Let's not bite every bait thrown our way, textile industry is NOT a strategic sector and push to kill mtumba AS THINGS STAND, will be detrimental.


Mutumba ni mutumba doesnt matter if its from China or wherever and my arguement was not about where the cloth was made rather we should get out of this mentality that we cant make anything valuable at a cost that all can afford. Why cant we yet this is where costs could be cheaper because of cheap labor? I go back to policies, the business env should be favorable from the beginning of production to the end product.

And by the way....buy Made is America is a very huge campaign in the US ask anyone there ati AGOA - nguo? Sell to Americans what they don't have...they are taking back industries and everything else they can do. They have to raise the employment numbers

And just to note The original argument was about cement and textile industries


@murchr, Mtumba clothing falls under textiles.
Check the part in blue,that answers why we have mtumba clothing.
There is very little mtumba from China. The mtumba from the developed world happens to have been made in China [majority of it].
Americans are focusing on hi-tech products. Those are kind of products that they'll be competitive in, Chinese cheap labor won't beat that.
Common clothing is NOT hi-tech by any measure.

My argument is, let's start with the basics before we go clothing on EMPTY stomachs as well as EMPTY pockets.


I think your just commenting for the sake of it. Kwani do Kenyans walk naked? Cant some plant food and others cotton? Do you know that cotton is among the most sort after commodity ranked together with oil gold bla bla..? Why cant we eat and create a textile industry? This mentality of expecting a sequence of events is what is dragging Africa behind. Ati tukule tushibe alafu tufikirie...that was the agrarian revolution mentality. Welcome to the information age.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
mwekez@ji
#365 Posted : Tuesday, September 10, 2013 9:20:41 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
mkeiyd
#366 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 8:54:45 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
murchr wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:

On textile. I dont understand why you get all personal when arguing out facts, anyway...to say that the mitumba industry dint kill the local textile industry is to be blind beyond words. Ati I sound like Ktirubi...well may be...you talk about value for money in mitumba, why cant we have value in what we make? Are we such dunderheads that we cant get designers who can make something that can be appreciated by us and the rest of the world? Cant we make a garment that would last? The jobs that can be created right from the production of cotton to he selling of whatever cloth cannot be ignored.



@murchr, Ever taken a look at those mutumba labels? Quite few have 'Made in US/UK/Italy/France etc. They read China, , , and then some South East Asian countries.



On the flip side,a country that struggles to feed itself, is it not wiser to grow food crops, rather than cotton?
Do we import Sugar? Rice? Maize? Eggs?
Do we have mitumba sugar? rice? maize? egg?
Why do we import?
Why are the imports cheaper?
How much cotton do we need to dress Kenya? 90,000 tons on average per year?
How many people will the textiles industry employ?
How much does an EPZ employee earn now?
How much does a mtumba retailer earn now?


Let's not bite every bait thrown our way, textile industry is NOT a strategic sector and push to kill mtumba AS THINGS STAND, will be detrimental.


Mutumba ni mutumba doesnt,,,,,, rather we should get out of this mentality that we cant make anything valuable at a cost that all can afford. Why cant we yet this is where costs could be cheaper because of cheap labor? I go back to policies, the business env should be favorable from the beginning of production to the end product.



And just to note The original argument was about cement and textile industries


@murchr, Mtumba clothing falls under textiles.
Check the part in blue,that answers why we have mtumba clothing.
There is very little mtumba from China. The mtumba from the developed world happens to have been made in China [majority of it].
Americans are focusing on hi-tech products. Those are kind of products that they'll be competitive in, Chinese cheap labor won't beat that.
Common clothing is NOT hi-tech by any measure.

My argument is, let's start with the basics before we go clothing on EMPTY stomachs as well as EMPTY pockets.


I think your just commenting for the sake of it. Kwani do Kenyans walk naked? Cant some plant food and others cotton? Do you know that cotton is among the most sort after commodity ranked together with oil gold bla bla..? Why cant we eat and create a textile industry? This mentality of expecting a sequence of events is what is dragging Africa behind. Ati tukule tushibe alafu tufikirie...that was the agrarian revolution mentality. Welcome to the information age.


@murchr, Stop generalizing,it becomes an effort in futility to be all over the place saying things that don't advance the debate.

Respond to my specific queries in blue please.

On matters Africa lagging behind, there's a whole thread for that.

About agrarian revolution, it gave birth to industrial revolution which then bore information age. Agrarian revolution was about food security,last i checked Kenya wasn't secure. Its not that we don't produce, but the policies in place creates wastage and artificial shortages. We learn to manage that and we'll manage the cash crops.

If agrarian revolution mentality will fix that, be it. But those were your words,not.

@murchr, Would it have been possible to have information/communication age without agrarian revolution?

First things first,the foundation, the basics.

Be specific in your response, focus.
Kausha
#367 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:54:03 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/8/2007
Posts: 808
@mkeiyd you nailed it, @muchr, please get up from the arm chair and strip down this policy thinking. You are looking at our problems like a a government officer, policies are enablers but the real work has to happen. We are arguing the real work. The rationale for AGOA is simple, some of the lower end Giorgio Armani clothes for the US market are made at EPZ. Now Imagine if they were being made with locally produced cotton and land in the states at lower prices, it can only encourage more US clothing manufacturers to come and produce in Kenya. Right now they rely on fabric sourced from Asia which is subjected to duties at Mombasa.

What we ought to be investigating is required interventions to get our cotton industry up and running soonest. You can imagine for an agricultural crop you have a ready market, you land and what you are lacking is seeds and information....how hard is it to fix that?
murchr
#368 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:39:09 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
Kausha wrote:
@mkeiyd you nailed itHow? , @muchr, please get up from the arm chair and strip down this policy thinking. You are looking at our problems like a a government officer, policies are enablers but the real work has to happen. We are arguing the real work. The rationale for AGOA is simple, some of the lower end Giorgio Armani clothes for the US market are made at EPZ. Now Imagine if they were being made with locally produced cotton and land in the states at lower prices, it can only encourage more US clothing manufacturers to come and produce in Kenya. Right now they rely on fabric sourced from Asia which is subjected to duties at Mombasa. Are you not saying that we need to revive our textile industry unlike @Mkeid who is saying that we need to eat first?
Dont you also agree that govt should become an enabler which is = policy making that creates a condusive env? Ama policy ndio nini?? Your tripping over yourself


What we ought to be investigating is required interventionsThat is what policy is all about to get our cotton industry up and running soonest. Tell that to @MkeiydYou can imagine for an agricultural crop you have a ready market, you land and what you are lacking is seeds and information....how hard is it to fix that?Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


But my stand remains, we cant continue depending on the US market we must start consuming our products. We already have local designers the fundi frank of this world and St Omolo (My local designer who makes cloths for me in Kenyatta Market) We have to empower these guys too. My friend when Americans say they are taking back their jobs they mean it, and thats why they have a POLICY called bring back jobs to America act soon what we'll be exporting to America will be what they cant produce. Even Nigeria's oil sold to the US has dropped to 57% due to fracking. Our biggest bet is Africa and for this to happen we have to empower our people to be consumers/spenders.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
murchr
#369 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:41:02 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:
mkeiyd wrote:
murchr wrote:

On textile. I dont understand why you get all personal when arguing out facts, anyway...to say that the mitumba industry dint kill the local textile industry is to be blind beyond words. Ati I sound like Ktirubi...well may be...you talk about value for money in mitumba, why cant we have value in what we make? Are we such dunderheads that we cant get designers who can make something that can be appreciated by us and the rest of the world? Cant we make a garment that would last? The jobs that can be created right from the production of cotton to he selling of whatever cloth cannot be ignored.



@murchr, Ever taken a look at those mutumba labels? Quite few have 'Made in US/UK/Italy/France etc. They read China, , , and then some South East Asian countries.



On the flip side,a country that struggles to feed itself, is it not wiser to grow food crops, rather than cotton?
Do we import Sugar? Rice? Maize? Eggs?
Do we have mitumba sugar? rice? maize? egg?
Why do we import?
Why are the imports cheaper?
How much cotton do we need to dress Kenya? 90,000 tons on average per year?
How many people will the textiles industry employ?
How much does an EPZ employee earn now?
How much does a mtumba retailer earn now?


Let's not bite every bait thrown our way, textile industry is NOT a strategic sector and push to kill mtumba AS THINGS STAND, will be detrimental.


Mutumba ni mutumba doesnt,,,,,, rather we should get out of this mentality that we cant make anything valuable at a cost that all can afford. Why cant we yet this is where costs could be cheaper because of cheap labor? I go back to policies, the business env should be favorable from the beginning of production to the end product.



And just to note The original argument was about cement and textile industries


@murchr, Mtumba clothing falls under textiles.
Check the part in blue,that answers why we have mtumba clothing.
There is very little mtumba from China. The mtumba from the developed world happens to have been made in China [majority of it].
Americans are focusing on hi-tech products. Those are kind of products that they'll be competitive in, Chinese cheap labor won't beat that.
Common clothing is NOT hi-tech by any measure.

My argument is, let's start with the basics before we go clothing on EMPTY stomachs as well as EMPTY pockets.


I think your just commenting for the sake of it. Kwani do Kenyans walk naked? Cant some plant food and others cotton? Do you know that cotton is among the most sort after commodity ranked together with oil gold bla bla..? Why cant we eat and create a textile industry? This mentality of expecting a sequence of events is what is dragging Africa behind. Ati tukule tushibe alafu tufikirie...that was the agrarian revolution mentality. Welcome to the information age.


@murchr, Stop generalizing,it becomes an effort in futility to be all over the place saying things that don't advance the debate.

Respond to my specific queries in blue please.

On matters Africa lagging behind, there's a whole thread for that.

About agrarian revolution, it gave birth to industrial revolution which then bore information age. Agrarian revolution was about food security,last i checked Kenya wasn't secure. Its not that we don't produce, but the policies in place creates wastage and artificial shortages. We learn to manage that and we'll manage the cash crops.

If agrarian revolution mentality will fix that, be it. But those were your words,not.

@murchr, Would it have been possible to have information/communication age without agrarian revolution?

First things first,the foundation, the basics.

Be specific in your response, focus.


You may need to read and synthesize my posts again
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Cde Monomotapa
#370 Posted : Wednesday, September 11, 2013 2:57:49 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 1/13/2011
Posts: 5,964
TCL & this?

COMESA infrastructure summit to boost trade:

Ministers and donor organisations will meet in Uganda this weekend to raise funds to fast-track joint infrastructure projects within the Common Market for East and Southern Africa (COMESA).... Rink-> http://www.newvision.co....mit-to-boost-trade.html
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