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Fuel tank logic
Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:At neutral the engine has to burn certain amount of gas to keep running… it is not in gear thus has to struggle a lot more.
The RPM is direct indication of the gas you are burning – Doesn’t this shows how many times the engine is revolving per minute? The more the RPM, the more the energy used?
You are actually better of engaged in Drive as this way you reduce the wear and tear when moving the stick. If however stopping for more than one minute, you are better of shutting of the engine.
At Neutral the engine struggles to run as compared to while on load??? Only if I were a blonde nurse, but with my heavy technical background, NO please, thank you. @McReggae why is it normally advisable to leave it on drive? Any link please? My hand is always shifting that thinh to Neutral naturally when in stops! Which load? The car is motionless, even if you release the brake it will come to a stop very shortly – provided there is no car ahead of you So if you leave your car on drive and lift your feet off the brake pedal if moves then stops after a short while? Mine moves at 10km/h indefinitely not unless you drive an automatic gear bulldozer!  It will depend on gradient, if on level ground, car will move due to momentum until stopped by friction, if on downward slope it will race downwards, if on gentle upward slope it stops much sooner. But there is really no appreciable load on engine. As stated above, when under neutral, car has to keep all electronic systems active thus engine has to struggle somewhat. When gear is engaged, the work is simplified… Same case engine is more efficient at higher gear than lower gear when at high speed. Am no automotive expert though, this is for 2 cents..
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,325 Location: Masada
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limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:At neutral the engine has to burn certain amount of gas to keep running… it is not in gear thus has to struggle a lot more.
The RPM is direct indication of the gas you are burning – Doesn’t this shows how many times the engine is revolving per minute? The more the RPM, the more the energy used?
You are actually better of engaged in Drive as this way you reduce the wear and tear when moving the stick. If however stopping for more than one minute, you are better of shutting of the engine.
At Neutral the engine struggles to run as compared to while on load??? Only if I were a blonde nurse, but with my heavy technical background, NO please, thank you. @McReggae why is it normally advisable to leave it on drive? Any link please? My hand is always shifting that thinh to Neutral naturally when in stops! Which load? The car is motionless, even if you release the brake it will come to a stop very shortly – provided there is no car ahead of you So if you leave your car on drive and lift your feet off the brake pedal if moves then stops after a short while? Mine moves at 10km/h indefinitely not unless you drive an automatic gear bulldozer! It will depend on gradient, if on level ground, car will move due to momentum until stopped by friction, if on downward slope it will race downwards, if on gentle upward slope it stops much sooner. But there is really no appreciable load on engine. As stated above, when under neutral, car has to keep all electronic systems active thus engine has to struggle somewhat. When gear is engaged, the work is simplified… Same case engine is more efficient at higher gear than lower gear when at high speed. Am no automotive expert though, this is for 2 cents.. What keeps all the electronic system active when gear is engaged so that work gets simplified for the car? My thinking the RPM is high at Neutral coz the engine runs freely without any obstruction hence the flywheel is able to keep the momentum thus assisting the engine...u consume less fuel while on idle as compared to while on Drive gear!!! Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Impunity wrote:limanika wrote:At neutral the engine has to burn certain amount of gas to keep running… it is not in gear thus has to struggle a lot more.
The RPM is direct indication of the gas you are burning – Doesn’t this shows how many times the engine is revolving per minute? The more the RPM, the more the energy used?
You are actually better of engaged in Drive as this way you reduce the wear and tear when moving the stick. If however stopping for more than one minute, you are better of shutting of the engine.
At Neutral the engine struggles to run as compared to while on load??? Only if I were a blonde nurse, but with my heavy technical background, NO please, thank you. @McReggae why is it normally advisable to leave it on drive? Any link please? My hand is always shifting that thinh to Neutral naturally when in stops! So many links kwa goggle.....by the way a little more research has made me realize that you use more fuel on neutral on modern cars....hio tabia ilitokana na mambo ya carburettors. ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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The neutral was not created to help you save gas when in jam or at traffic light. Main purpose is to relieve the transmission when shifting gears, and to enable you relieve the brakes if you have to stop for a considerable time when engine is still running. Engaging neutral when driving downhill is dangerous coz you lose ability to control the car… Let’s forget about saving fuel at neutral coz you don’t save any…and this wasn’t in the manufacturer’s mind at all anyway
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/21/2011 Posts: 2,032
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In other words, you can engage neutral for other reasons but not to save fuel.. If you live in California and want to save fuel, this is what you do: http://www.consumerenerg...ortation/consumer_tips/
If anyone has an authoritative link which shows you save fuel at neutral or when you re- fuelling at half full tank… please share…otherwise, Next thread!!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/8/2013 Posts: 2,517
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@CLK from my motoring experience I guess your ride is of Euluopean origin in particular Germany pedigree the type that UMK bought for ministers no? You have to forgive us for askin cause in area code + 254 we are generally conditioned to think Japanese and made to believe The Car Infront is. . . Now the instrument panels za Japs is nothin to write home about. I have only seen the feature in my Bhai friends VX . Any other Toyotas with this feature..? Reminds me of some old articles by J M Baraza @ Nation motoring pages Interesting insights on this thread and good comments from kina @ limanika appreciated . . . Keep sharing . CLK wrote:wilyum wrote:NA hii gadget,did it came with your car ama you installed locally? Its not a gadget, car displays how much fuel you have both on the fuel gauge and also in terms of kilometers, you press this button that changes the views to show other stuff like how many kilometers to a liter, for a given trip, it can show, how long in hrs and minutes, fuel consumption average, speed average etc ,besides the normal views on the speedometer. "😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
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Rank: Member Joined: 3/18/2008 Posts: 377
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Interesting observations here! While in Neutral, the transmission is not linked to the engine. This means the engine is not under any load unless the AC is on; which means less fuel. The RPM keeps fluctuating to compensate differences in air/fuel ratio. The ideal air/fuel ratio is 13 to 1 but at times there are inconsistencies as a result of the temperature of air which affects combustion. All the same, when in gear (manual transmission)but with clutch pressed, its the same as being in neutral because the clutch disengages the engine from the gearbox which means the engine is on its on. Switching on the AC loads up the engine hence more fuel is used. For Automatic transmission, the fuel consumed under "N" and "D", varies slightly. In D, the torque converter is engaged which means slightly more load on the engine (but this is negligible). As mentioned earlier, the idling RPM fluctuates marginally to compensate air temperature differences otherwise the amount of fuel used/injected in the combustion chambers is determined by the instructions received from the throttle position sensors/mass airflow sensors which is determined by how far, aggressive and gentle the accelerator is pressed. "You've never lived until you've almost died; for those who have fought for it, life has a flavour the protected will never know."
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 846
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Siringi wrote:@CLK from my motoring experience I guess your ride is of Euluopean origin in particular Germany pedigree the type that UMK bought for ministers no?You have to forgive us for askin cause in area code + 254 we are generally conditioned to think Japanese and made to believe The Car Infront is. . . Now the instrument panels za Japs is nothin to write home about. I have only seen the feature in my Bhai friends VX . Any other Toyotas with this feature..? Reminds me of some old articles by J M Baraza @ Nation motoring pages Interesting insights on this thread and good comments from kina @ limanika appreciated . . . Keep sharing . CLK wrote:wilyum wrote:NA hii gadget,did it came with your car ama you installed locally? Its not a gadget, car displays how much fuel you have both on the fuel gauge and also in terms of kilometers, you press this button that changes the views to show other stuff like how many kilometers to a liter, for a given trip, it can show, how long in hrs and minutes, fuel consumption average, speed average etc ,besides the normal views on the speedometer. @Siringi, car is in this family yes. I like the bit where it shows your fuel consumption in real-time and at high speeds i see 88km/l for a couple of seconds, if only it could last longer. am not from the lakeside though 
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 4/1/2009 Posts: 1,883
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Siringi wrote:@CLK from my motoring experience I guess your ride is of Euluopean origin in particular Germany pedigree the type that UMK bought for ministers no? You have to forgive us for askin cause in area code + 254 we are generally conditioned to think Japanese and made to believe The Car Infront is. . . Now the instrument panels za Japs is nothin to write home about. I have only seen the feature in my Bhai friends VX . Any other Toyotas with this feature..? Reminds me of some old articles by J M Baraza @ Nation motoring pages Interesting insights on this thread and good comments from kina @ limanika appreciated . . . Keep sharing . CLK wrote:wilyum wrote:NA hii gadget,did it came with your car ama you installed locally? Its not a gadget, car displays how much fuel you have both on the fuel gauge and also in terms of kilometers, you press this button that changes the views to show other stuff like how many kilometers to a liter, for a given trip, it can show, how long in hrs and minutes, fuel consumption average, speed average etc ,besides the normal views on the speedometer. avensis. and many other toyota brands from uk.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/5/2008 Posts: 23
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Even if the readout is digital. A fuel gauge is by its very nature inaccurate. Aviators dont even bother with them, preferring to use calculations to determine how much fuel they have on board.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,325 Location: Masada
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Wally5 wrote:Even if the readout is digital. A fuel gauge is by its very nature inaccurate. Aviators dont even bother with them, preferring to use calculations to determine how much fuel they have on board.
Ditto! Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2008 Posts: 1,139
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Nice analsyis guys. Kudos @impunity,Limanika,luttz,Mcdoba and all others...... "You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it". Malcolm X
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,325 Location: Masada
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Burning Spear wrote:Nice analsyis guys.
Kudos @impunity,Limanika,luttz,Mcdoba and all others...... It was a great forum between Engineers, Mechanics and Drivers. Engineers argued that the slow speed at Drive gear while driving consumes more fuel since the torque converter is loaded and car tries to move. Mechanics argued that since the RPM at Neutral gear is higher then the vehicle consumes more at N-gear. Reasoning purely based on what they see. Drivers/Blondes reasoned that the Neutral gear in automatic drive cars was simply meant to ease the effort from the Driver/Blondes by pulling handbrakes while in standstill traffic, nothing happens to fuel consumption. Je, wewe ulikuwa pande gani? Uko na mshahidi?Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/8/2013 Posts: 2,517
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Most cars around promise mile ages of 15 to 20 km per liter highway. Now assuming a 60ltr fuel tank this would mean at least 900-1200km on a single full tank meaning Nrb msa and back or kisumu Mombasa with something left in the tank Discuss from experience. "😖😡KQ makes money for everyone except the shareholder 😏😏 " overheard in Wazua
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/26/2008 Posts: 380
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Siringi wrote:Most cars around promise mile ages of 15 to 20 km per liter highway. Now assuming a 60ltr fuel tank this would mean at least 900-1200km on a single full tank meaning Nrb msa and back or kisumu Mombasa with something left in the tank
Discuss from experience. I have done 17km/l on a manual AE100. Gradient matters alot - e.g. NRB-Eldoret vs NRB-MSA is not the same.. There are too many factors to consider!
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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Wololo...I jumped on to this looking forward to an answer to questions I always av in mind. But now am more confused than before. Sasa nani anasema ukweli Hata yangu ni 2000cc and I av been experiencing CLK's "problem". Eg I would fill the tank when going shags, uphill to Nyeri, get home when its not even half tank, do some rounds...my trip back, esp if I start it when the fuel is below half, will require I top up immediately I get back to town or somewhere around Thika road. This baffles me coz ideally it shud consume more uphill to Nyeri than on the way back. Maybe the gauge is not a very accurate way, that is my conclusion. I av also wondered about about the neutral thing. Does it really save fuel? Experience tends to show me it doesnt...or if any, the saving is negligible. I have a near-bad experience with neutral though. One day I was driving my older car, an NZE, along Langata Road when I was younger. I was running low on fuel and since there was jam I thought I could save on the neutral thing. Then ujinga kidogo ikaniingia. Now that if your engine is off u save more, I switched off and the jam opened(we started moving). I decided to continue with the neutral without switching on. Ujinga mingi sana...About 30 seconds after releasing the hand brake, the breaks were "dead", the car started moving faster and I was losing control completely. I immediately directed the car to the side to avoid hitting the car ahead. Nikapanda juu ya pavement...was already panicking. I engaged the hand break but it didnt stop immediately. There was a stone ahead and I "pimad" one of the wheel to hit it and that way it stopped. I had learnt my lesson on the road and I no longer want the car in motion when on neutral.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,325 Location: Masada
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washiku wrote:Wololo...I jumped on to this looking forward to an answer to questions I always av in mind. But now am more confused than before. Sasa nani anasema ukweli Hata yangu ni 2000cc and I av been experiencing CLK's "problem". Eg I would fill the tank when going shags, uphill to Nyeri, get home when its not even half tank, do some rounds...my trip back, esp if I start it when the fuel is below half, will require I top up immediately I get back to town or somewhere around Thika road. This baffles me coz ideally it shud consume more uphill to Nyeri than on the way back. Maybe the gauge is not a very accurate way, that is my conclusion. I av also wondered about about the neutral thing. Does it really save fuel? Experience tends to show me it doesnt...or if any, the saving is negligible. I have a near-bad experience with neutral though. One day I was driving my older car, an NZE, along Langata Road when I was younger. I was running low on fuel and since there was jam I thought I could save on the neutral thing. Then ujinga kidogo ikaniingia. Now that if your engine is off u save more, I switched off and the jam opened(we started moving). I decided to continue with the neutral without switching on. Ujinga mingi sana...About 30 seconds after releasing the hand brake, the breaks were "dead", the car started moving faster and I was losing control completely. I immediately directed the car to the side to avoid hitting the car ahead. Nikapanda juu ya pavement...was already panicking. I engaged the hand break but it didnt stop immediately. There was a stone ahead and I "pimad" one of the wheel to hit it and that way it stopped. I had learnt my lesson on the road and I no longer want the car in motion when on neutral. Am glad ujinga ilikutoroka! The break pump is dead when engine id off and thus yu will need a massive foot power to apply the breaks effectively, handbrake is nothing for a moving car! Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Member Joined: 5/2/2007 Posts: 536
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Siringi wrote:Most cars around promise mile ages of 15 to 20 km per liter highway. Now assuming a 60ltr fuel tank this would mean at least 900-1200km on a single full tank meaning Nrb msa and back or kisumu Mombasa with something left in the tank
Discuss from experience. when this 2L D4 vvti was younger it once did nearly 16 km/l to Msa
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2009 Posts: 26,325 Location: Masada
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tuvok wrote:Siringi wrote:Most cars around promise mile ages of 15 to 20 km per liter highway. Now assuming a 60ltr fuel tank this would mean at least 900-1200km on a single full tank meaning Nrb msa and back or kisumu Mombasa with something left in the tank
Discuss from experience. when this 2L D4 vvti was younger it once did nearly 16 km/l to Msa Wacha until the time those ma-sensors wil start seeing ma dim dim its when utajua D4 ni nini! Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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washiku wrote:Wololo...I jumped on to this looking forward to an answer to questions I always av in mind. But now am more confused than before. Sasa nani anasema ukweli Hata yangu ni 2000cc and I av been experiencing CLK's "problem". Eg I would fill the tank when going shags, uphill to Nyeri, get home when its not even half tank, do some rounds...my trip back, esp if I start it when the fuel is below half, will require I top up immediately I get back to town or somewhere around Thika road. This baffles me coz ideally it shud consume more uphill to Nyeri than on the way back. Maybe the gauge is not a very accurate way, that is my conclusion. I av also wondered about about the neutral thing. Does it really save fuel? Experience tends to show me it doesnt...or if any, the saving is negligible. I have a near-bad experience with neutral though. One day I was driving my older car, an NZE, along Langata Road when I was younger. I was running low on fuel and since there was jam I thought I could save on the neutral thing. Then ujinga kidogo ikaniingia. Now that if your engine is off u save more, I switched off and the jam opened(we started moving). I decided to continue with the neutral without switching on. Ujinga mingi sana...About 30 seconds after releasing the hand brake, the breaks were "dead", the car started moving faster and I was losing control completely. I immediately directed the car to the side to avoid hitting the car ahead. Nikapanda juu ya pavement...was already panicking. I engaged the hand break but it didnt stop immediately. There was a stone ahead and I "pimad" one of the wheel to hit it and that way it stopped. I had learnt my lesson on the road and I no longer want the car in motion when on neutral. Mimi niko na hii tabia ya free wheeling. I once free wheeled an old premio on a steep slope with corners kule Embu. Gari zimika! Hiyo steering afadhali mawe ya mjengo. Makueni flashed right infront of my eyes but I controlled the car n the EMERGENCY Brake as Americans call it saved the day. Which begs an important question, why didn't the engine restart when I reverted to D? TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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