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Muthaura: All ICC charges dropped
nakujua
#51 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 10:39:52 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
nakujua wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


I wonder if this is possible. ICC will drop the whole case on Kenya's lap.

What is the President's policy towards PEV?


Ruto's case remain solid while Kenyatta's become weaker by the day.....that is the reality!!! UMK does not fear saying that with Muthaura's case thrown out, his case should not stand, he never talks about the Ruto case.....very telling if you ask me!!!

this is a political process, utaona.


Will the case retain ICC threshold if Ruto alone remains in the case?

ICC thresholds are detailed, but one of the major one is the existence of an organization, in uk's case that was easy to prove since they implicated the governments machinery - in wsr case the prosecutor went a long way in trying to establish the "organization" and the pre trial judges agreed to the same so one the main threshold remains.
Impunity
#52 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 10:40:25 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,335
Location: Masada
mawinder wrote:
Impunity wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


It would be better for the nation in the long run if the two "principal-elects" were to remain there alone.

You want Kenyans to face the lake?


I want the truth to face the people.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Mpenzi
#53 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:10:34 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
nakujua wrote:
tycho wrote:
nakujua wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


I wonder if this is possible. ICC will drop the whole case on Kenya's lap.

What is the President's policy towards PEV?


Ruto's case remain solid while Kenyatta's become weaker by the day.....that is the reality!!! UMK does not fear saying that with Muthaura's case thrown out, his case should not stand, he never talks about the Ruto case.....very telling if you ask me!!!

this is a political process, utaona.


Will the case retain ICC threshold if Ruto alone remains in the case?

ICC thresholds are detailed, but one of the major one is the existence of an organization, in uk's case that was easy to prove since they implicated the governments machinery - in wsr case the prosecutor went a long way in trying to establish the "organization" and the pre trial judges agreed to the same so one the main threshold remains.


The biggest hurdle in both cases remains establishing the threshold set out in Article 7(2)(a)of the Rome Statute particularly proving "attack directed against any civilian population’ means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 [of Article 7] against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack"

Now that Muthaura and Ali are out,it will be harder to prove "State" policy. It will also be harder to prove "organizational policy" with the Mungiki witness' withdrawal of his evidence. Furthermore one has to show that Mungiki was acting as an organisation having the state's capabilities or in concert with the state hence the strenuous efforts by Ocampo to connect Mungiki and the State e.g. the allegation that security agencies were asked not to interfere with the alleged "Mungiki's" advance to Naivasha.
mawinder
#54 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:19:30 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
Impunity wrote:
mawinder wrote:
Impunity wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


It would be better for the nation in the long run if the two "principal-elects" were to remain there alone.

You want Kenyans to face the lake?


I want the truth to face the people.

At times the truth is not always in the best interest of people.
nakujua
#55 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 11:37:56 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
Mpenzi wrote:
nakujua wrote:
tycho wrote:
nakujua wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


I wonder if this is possible. ICC will drop the whole case on Kenya's lap.

What is the President's policy towards PEV?


Ruto's case remain solid while Kenyatta's become weaker by the day.....that is the reality!!! UMK does not fear saying that with Muthaura's case thrown out, his case should not stand, he never talks about the Ruto case.....very telling if you ask me!!!

this is a political process, utaona.


Will the case retain ICC threshold if Ruto alone remains in the case?

ICC thresholds are detailed, but one of the major one is the existence of an organization, in uk's case that was easy to prove since they implicated the governments machinery - in wsr case the prosecutor went a long way in trying to establish the "organization" and the pre trial judges agreed to the same so one the main threshold remains.


The biggest hurdle in both cases remains establishing the threshold set out in Article 7(2)(a)of the Rome Statute particularly proving "attack directed against any civilian population’ means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 [of Article 7] against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack"

Now that Muthaura and Ali are out,it will be harder to prove "State" policy. It will also be harder to prove "organizational policy" with the Mungiki witness' withdrawal of his evidence. Furthermore one has to show that Mungiki was acting as an organisation having the state's capabilities or in concert with the state hence the strenuous efforts by Ocampo to connect Mungiki and the State e.g. the allegation that security agencies were asked not to interfere with the alleged "Mungiki's" advance to Naivasha.

Without ali and muthaura, uk's case is as good as dead, what remains to be seen is what happens to wsr - as i said the ICC still has a lot of politics involved so you never know
tycho
#56 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:31:09 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
nakujua wrote:
Mpenzi wrote:
nakujua wrote:
tycho wrote:
nakujua wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


I wonder if this is possible. ICC will drop the whole case on Kenya's lap.

What is the President's policy towards PEV?


Ruto's case remain solid while Kenyatta's become weaker by the day.....that is the reality!!! UMK does not fear saying that with Muthaura's case thrown out, his case should not stand, he never talks about the Ruto case.....very telling if you ask me!!!

this is a political process, utaona.


Will the case retain ICC threshold if Ruto alone remains in the case?

ICC thresholds are detailed, but one of the major one is the existence of an organization, in uk's case that was easy to prove since they implicated the governments machinery - in wsr case the prosecutor went a long way in trying to establish the "organization" and the pre trial judges agreed to the same so one the main threshold remains.


The biggest hurdle in both cases remains establishing the threshold set out in Article 7(2)(a)of the Rome Statute particularly proving "attack directed against any civilian population’ means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 [of Article 7] against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack"

Now that Muthaura and Ali are out,it will be harder to prove "State" policy. It will also be harder to prove "organizational policy" with the Mungiki witness' withdrawal of his evidence. Furthermore one has to show that Mungiki was acting as an organisation having the state's capabilities or in concert with the state hence the strenuous efforts by Ocampo to connect Mungiki and the State e.g. the allegation that security agencies were asked not to interfere with the alleged "Mungiki's" advance to Naivasha.

Without ali and muthaura, uk's case is as good as dead, what remains to be seen is what happens to wsr - as i said the ICC still has a lot of politics involved so you never know


One political motive of the ICC would be to assert its legitimacy.

So yes, Ruto may be retained as a 'Suspect' and kept under investigation.

The President may be holding the key to Ruto's freedom. For the Presidency has to bring out the truth and execute justice.

It is as if the President is trying himself. Or rather, exenorating himself.
tycho
#57 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:46:02 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
nakujua wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


I wonder if this is possible. ICC will drop the whole case on Kenya's lap.

What is the President's policy towards PEV?


Ruto's case remain solid while Kenyatta's become weaker by the day.....that is the reality!!! UMK does not fear saying that with Muthaura's case thrown out, his case should not stand, he never talks about the Ruto case.....very telling if you ask me!!!

this is a political process, utaona.


Will the case retain ICC threshold if Ruto alone remains in the case?


Each case is based on it's own merit....so far there has been no hole punched in Ruto's case!!!

.....He has a lifeline though, the witnesses now seem to want to pick what they can a move on with their lives!!!


What would happen to Kenya if all witnesses walked out?

I see the ICC and the world looking at us with suspicion. In the end, we will all be suspicious of each other.

Foreign policy and domestic policy are one.
nakujua
#58 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:28:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
nakujua wrote:
McReggae wrote:
tycho wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


I wonder if this is possible. ICC will drop the whole case on Kenya's lap.

What is the President's policy towards PEV?


Ruto's case remain solid while Kenyatta's become weaker by the day.....that is the reality!!! UMK does not fear saying that with Muthaura's case thrown out, his case should not stand, he never talks about the Ruto case.....very telling if you ask me!!!

this is a political process, utaona.


Will the case retain ICC threshold if Ruto alone remains in the case?


Each case is based on it's own merit....so far there has been no hole punched in Ruto's case!!!

.....He has a lifeline though, the witnesses now seem to want to pick what they can a move on with their lives!!!


What would happen to Kenya if all witnesses walked out?

I see the ICC and the world looking at us with suspicion. In the end, we will all be suspicious of each other.

Foreign policy and domestic policy are one.

My thoughts are that ICC is caught between a rock and a very hard place, the kenyan case is not the typical case - the cooperation from the suspects is suspect and I don't think there is any place in the world where suspects of mass murder are tried when not in custody.
they created the mess by not issuing arrest warrants from the word go.
poundfoolish
#59 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:35:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


My take
His case will linger along till 2017, where he will need to co-operate for Kamwana's second term..
In 2022, if he is patient enough. He will have a free hand to run, but by then half the voters would have been swayed by a new Kid on the block.. my guess is PK... and 07 PEV's will be historical injustices that need to be dealt with..

Scenario 2.
He will demand his case be dealt with as well, before 2017 lest he takes his votes elsewhere...

As a friend said..
Kuwa mpole uskie WSR akisema.."Simnamjua yule jamaa wa ma *&^**?"

My prayer is that non of it happens..
Impunity
#60 Posted : Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:39:21 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,335
Location: Masada
poundfoolish wrote:
McReggae wrote:
As I said sometimes this year in another thread, I see Ruto remaining here alone!!!


My take
His case will linger along till 2017, where he will need to co-operate for Kamwana's second term..
In 2022, if he is patient enough. He will have a free hand to run, but by then half the voters would have been swayed by a new Kid on the block.. my guess is PK... and 07 PEV's will be historical injustices that need to be dealt with..

Scenario 2.
He will demand his case be dealt with as well, before 2017 lest he takes his votes elsewhere...

As a friend said..
Kuwa mpole uskie WSR akisema.."Simnamjua yule jamaa wa ma *&^**?"

My prayer is that non of it happens..


Hii Kenya!!!

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Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

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