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IMF: Kenya's economy self reliant, don't need EU
Rank: Member Joined: 7/9/2011 Posts: 730 Location: Nairobi
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Nabwire wrote:You didnt answer my original question, you just danced around it with irrelevant stats. Question was you want them to stay so that they can milk us and pay taxes? This is not a popularity contest, just answer the question directly, your irrelevant stats only amuse people like Mathenge. I dont know where Economics 101 fits into this, these companies are in Kenya because they are making profits. If they are forced to leave ( unlikely) someone else will reap those profits,unless you are implying that Kenyan companies are not capable of paying taxes, in which case thats a question of enforcement. Stop being so blindwashed by western propaganda, you would make more sense if you argued that sanctions will slow down FDI flows but taxes? And who said we have to import clothes? How will sanctions affect how I send money home? I hope you know that I can easily send an ATM card to someone in Kenya, and incurr a $3 charge everytime they withdraw money from Kenya, so how exactly will money flows be affected? Dont just spew irrelevant rhetoric!! what a simpleton!!!!! acha emotions nabwire, think baby think our goals are best achieved indirectly
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/14/2006 Posts: 1,311
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a4architect.com wrote:@liv..basically, the EU and American companies will sue their own govts for coming up with unreasonable directives so unless its a grave substansive issue such as nuclear, i doubt if EU and US can manage to win such cases if sued by their own citizens.
@a4architect.com,
Does that means the blanket sanctions theory (where all multinationals will be ordered to leave the country, where exports to some companies in Europe will be stopped, Western Union will be closed and you cannot send money anywhere, our children cannot study abroad, etc) being perpetuated here by Guru and company cannot happen?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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@liv..the EU and US will have to battel it out in courts with the multinationals. For such flimsy reasons as in the Kenyan case, i doubt they can be able to convince their multinationals. http://www.forbes.com/si...-against-iranian-banks/
Quote:Reuters is reporting that a European Union court has ruled against the EU banking sanctions imposed on one of Iran’s largest banks, which extends to the payment sanctions imposed by Swift in March of last year. This represents the second such judgment against the banking sanctions and brings into question the legitimacy of using the Swift payments network as an economic weapon. http://www.forbes.com/si...-against-iranian-banks/
A global network for the transfer of funds loses some of its effectiveness once its neutrality becomes tarnished, because any member of the network could be similarly targeted without recourse. Leibbrandt said, “There is a dialogue going on around the trade-off between using us as a sanctions tool for other countries and impeding our role as really serving as a global infrastructure mechanism.” He added that “there are lots of alternatives to Swift” and international transactions can still be executed by sending instructions via telephone or email, but such alternatives are “not as secure as Swift and [lack] the convenience factor.” @nabwire..SWIFT also recognise that they are not a monopoly . As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/14/2006 Posts: 1,311
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a4architect.com wrote:@liv..the EU and US will have to battel it out in courts with the multinationals. For such flimsy reasons as in the Kenyan case, i doubt they can be able to convince their multinationals. http://www.forbes.com/si...-against-iranian-banks/
Quote:Reuters is reporting that a European Union court has ruled against the EU banking sanctions imposed on one of Iran’s largest banks, which extends to the payment sanctions imposed by Swift in March of last year. This represents the second such judgment against the banking sanctions and brings into question the legitimacy of using the Swift payments network as an economic weapon. Many thanks for info.
I take the case for Iran to be an extreme because the world is trying to stop the nuclear program which is a security issue to neighboring countries. However I understand Iranian children are still going to the West for studies as long as they are not related to those in power in Iran.
I am aware that the Sudan sanctions were put against individuals and companies involved in the Darfur conflict around 2004 and influential individuals in Sudanese government. These were approved by the UN security committee in 2005 ... this was way before an arrest warrant was issued by ICC on President El Bashir (which was done in 2009). People have been confusing these 2 issues here.
Must all sanctions be approved by UN security committee, and what does this involve?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 3/26/2012 Posts: 1,182
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Liv wrote:Can someone educate me dispassionately how electing Uhuruto will bring US & Europe sanctions against Kenya.
@Liv, Kenyan constitutions gives immunity to a sitting president against prosecution. Once elected, the duo might choose to hide under the constitution,you and i will have no way of stopping them.
They've said they'll continue to cooperate,but are they sitting president/deputy yet? Do we expect them to say the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
I highly doubt. Running the gov't from Hague? How? UK was asked how he plans to run the gov't from the Hague during the debates,instead of answering,he took the cheapest route.
"If Kenyans elect me, then it means they have faith in my ability bla bla bla" Why did he not give the plan?
I've heard people say the bridge will be crossed when we get there. I highly doubt there will be any crossing,thanks to the constitution.
That's HOW sanctions will come. Non-cooperation with the ICC and thereafter, the UN.
@ Nabwire, You send and can send your ATM home because the US gov't lets you. Talk to any Cuban/Venezuelan you might come across. Having said that, i don't think the US gov't will bother with Kenyan remittances.
About multinationals operating in Kenya,we like crying "they milk us". I say they don't. They are investors just like us the locals. If they milk us,then we should try looking/marketing ourselves for FDI. Do you believe the Swedish furniture manufacturing in the US is milking Americans?Is Toyota milking Americans?
The point is, we have four factors of production, only one factor's reward goes to the investor's bank account,PROFITS and most of the time, not all of it. What is the share of profits compared to total revenue?
Now compare the profits to rents/rates, taxes,wages and salaries and other variable costs of production?
Don't look at TAXES only,look at all the other rewards to the other factors of production.
Kenya benefits more from BAT than the shareholders. If BAT closes shop,the shareholders loss would be a drop in the sea compared to the farmers,the suppliers,the employees even without thinking of the gov't.Multinationals in Kenya are NOT going to close. However,
with sanctions,it won't be business as usual.
We export apparels to US favorably thanks to AGOA,with sanctions, kiss market away.
We export horticultural produce to EU ,with sanctions,that market might be lost.
Kenya exhibits tourism in any fora we can lay hands on world wide,with sanctions,that won't be the case meaning lower tourist arrivals.
If we cannot get hard currencies from exports and tourism,how are we gonna import oil,machinery and farm inputs? Drugs? Military ware etc etc?
Without oil,farm inputs and machinery,how can we manufacture? Without drugs, we are a sick nation.
Anyone can talk about BRICS,i ask, when was the last time anyone here bought an air ticket,imported machinery or quoted exports in Yuan or Rand?Bottom line is we need the West,more than they need us. The West can keep on typing their keyboards without importing anything Kenyan,the line you are about to type has some ware from the West. If only we could use our minds,build our economy and maybe,in 30 years time,we can start punching with the heavy weights. For now, Kenya is in the feather weight club,how well are we to square it with heavy weights,NOW!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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@liv. UNSC approves sanctions. Unfortunately, China and Russia hold vetoe powers so sanctions that dont make sense to Russia and China cant pass through. US and EU have to resort to other methods to enforce such http://en.wikipedia.org/...ations_Security_Council
http://en.wikipedia.org/...Nations_Security_CouncilAs Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Chief Joined: 1/13/2011 Posts: 5,964
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Hii Propaganda imezidi. Hehe...
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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China and Russia can not allow sanctions without proper solid valid reasons. UNSC sanctions are weighty. EU sanctions can be challenged in court as in the SWIFT bank cases currently. This is how EU imposes its sanctions. https://www.gov.uk/sanct...argoes-and-restrictions
Why impose sanctions? Sanctions, including economic sanctions, are put in place for a number of reasons. All recent UN and EU sanctions contain information as to why they have been imposed and specify what their aim is. Their principal purpose is usually to change the behaviour of the target country’s regimes, individuals or groups in a direction which will improve the situation in that country. The ultimate objective of a sanction varies according to the situation. For instance, an arms embargo and a ban on the export of certain items or raw materials could be aimed at supporting a peace process and restricting the financing of weapons by the combatants. Sanctions may also be aimed at preventing weapons from falling into the wrong hands, disrupting terrorist operations, or trying to change the policies and actions of the target. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/21/2010 Posts: 6,675 Location: Nairobi
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Liv wrote:Can someone educate me dispassionately how electing Uhuruto will bring US & Europe sanctions against Kenya. Let me try and be as dispassionate as possible!  1. If we elect UhuRuto and they co operate with the Hague then there won't be sanctions but just a cut in ties with the West to the bare essentials.. 2. If we elect UhuRuto and they DO NOT co operate then we will be in for sanctions.. Nb: (The Kenyan constitution gives immunity to the incumbent president from prosecution OF ANY KIND)Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/14/2006 Posts: 1,311
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mkeiyd wrote:Liv wrote:Can someone educate me dispassionately how electing Uhuruto will bring US & Europe sanctions against Kenya.
@Liv, Kenyan constitutions gives immunity to a sitting president against prosecution. Once elected, the duo might choose to hide under the constitution,you and i will have no way of stopping them.
They've said they'll continue to cooperate,but are they sitting president/deputy yet? Do we expect them to say the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
I highly doubt. Running the gov't from Hague? How? UK was asked how he plans to run the gov't from the Hague during the debates,instead of answering,he took the cheapest route.
"If Kenyans elect me, then it means they have faith in my ability bla bla bla" Why did he not give the plan?
I've heard people say the bridge will be crossed when we get there. I highly doubt there will be any crossing,thanks to the constitution.
That's HOW sanctions will come. Non-cooperation with the ICC and thereafter, the UN.
@Mkeid
If we rely on what was said by UK during the debate.... he said he is more interested in clearing his name....and therefore he will cooperate with ICC. I guess this is his promise to Kenyans. Why do you doubt he will cooperate and go against this promise? How will Kenya suffer if he cooperates?
In the unlikely event that Uhuruto refuse to cooperate with ICC, you seem to think there will be a blanket sanctions against Kenya.... where every citizen is affected and international business is curtailed (e.g. AGOA business will end). Can you give me an example where that has happened? I am aware of sanctions against individuals but I am yet to see the blanket sanctions against communities / countries.
Why do you think there will be blanket sanctions against Kenya (affecting the whole population).... if that has not been effected elsewhere? Who will approve these blanket sanctions if China and Russia have veto power at the UNSC?
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