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Fallacy of Democracy
ChessMaster
#1 Posted : Friday, February 01, 2013 9:08:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
Democracy,everyone has a right to vote and choose who they think will be best for them and their fellow citizens. The problem is,without an informed citizenship how do you know who to vote for to best safeguard your interests? I agree,citizens can't always be voting for each and every small issue and that's why we have representatives. But are representatives really representing us if we can't understand what they are saying and what they intend to do.Now that brings in the problem,is democracy a pacifier?
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#2 Posted : Friday, February 01, 2013 10:02:48 PM
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Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Representative Democracy alone cannot pacify the citizens.

For the representative is not only limited in rationality and information, but will always be guided by self interest.

The representative will always do what he thinks needs to be done, but can he know what actually needs to be done?

What we need is a direct democracy to complement the representative system.

This way, the body politic will have peace at all times, and it will flourish.

ChessMaster
#3 Posted : Friday, February 01, 2013 10:10:10 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
tycho wrote:
Representative Democracy alone cannot pacify the citizens.

For the representative is not only limited in rationality and information, but will always be guided by self interest.

The representative will always do what he thinks needs to be done, but can he know what actually needs to be done?

What we need is a direct democracy to complement the representative system.

This way, the body politic will have peace at all times, and it will flourish.




I agree but I don't completely understand. Care to explain direct democracy? I hadn't thought about self interest of representatives,a big problem. Isn't the objective to elect representative who will try to find out what the needs of the people are and engage them to try and solve them.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#4 Posted : Friday, February 01, 2013 10:27:29 PM
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Joined: 7/1/2011
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Location: Nairobi
The needs of the people can only be known, and met at the market place.

Imagine what happens when the citizens go first to a middle man in the name of a politician?

Prices will always be distorted, goods and services will be hoarded, and generally, the freedom of the citizen will be cut.

How does the politician get this data? Who collects it for him? When does he process and comprehend this data?

This process is too long and inaccurate!

Direct democracy is where each individual takes himself to the market, and through this, has a say in the day to day running of government.

Everyday is voting day, and the government is playing a very different role from its current one.

Citizens decide on what needs to be done, they contribute towards creating it and hold officers directly accountable.

ChessMaster
#5 Posted : Friday, February 01, 2013 11:35:07 PM
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Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
But people don't like more responsibilities. Direct democracy is demanding but bears more fruit.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
For Sport
#6 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 6:31:17 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
ChessMaster wrote:
...The problem is,without an informed citizenship how do you know who to vote for to best safeguard your interests?...

There lies the problem.
We treat the campaign period as the time for putting ideas out there so that the voter can make his choice based on the ideologies that most appealed to him.
Problem is, some voters will invest more time in researching and probing the potential leadership (nyinyi hapa wazua), while others will attend a rally get entertained by a few stories and dances and vote. Both the informed vote and the uninformed vote (unfortunately) carry the same weight.
tycho
#7 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 8:12:15 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
ChessMaster wrote:
But people don't like more responsibilities. Direct democracy is demanding but bears more fruit.


People appear not to like responsibility because of its costs and because the Market structures are flawed.

But with the internet, the Citizen will experience less costs, and great gains if he/she is directly responsible for what happens around.

Again, since the government can no longer provide employment, health facilities and the goodies it has often promised, it follows that it must encourage the direct participation of the individual through social and cultural influence.

ChessMaster
#8 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:13:38 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
@For Sport - That's exactly the problem.

@tycho - Do you see the government pushing for participation. I doubt it would want that much pressure and accountability.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
josiah33
#9 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:15:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
tycho wrote:
The needs of the people can only be known, and met at the market place.

Imagine what happens when the citizens go first to a middle man in the name of a politician?

Prices will always be distorted, goods and services will be hoarded, and generally, the freedom of the citizen will be cut.

How does the politician get this data? Who collects it for him? When does he process and comprehend this data?

This process is too long and inaccurate!

Direct democracy is where each individual takes himself to the market, and through this, has a say in the day to day running of government.

Everyday is voting day, and the government is playing a very different role from its current one.

Citizens decide on what needs to be done, they contribute towards creating it and hold officers directly accountable.


How does this direct democracy really work?
josiah33
#10 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:16:41 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
For Sport wrote:
ChessMaster wrote:
...The problem is,without an informed citizenship how do you know who to vote for to best safeguard your interests?...

There lies the problem.
We treat the campaign period as the time for putting ideas out there so that the voter can make his choice based on the ideologies that most appealed to him.
Problem is, some voters will invest more time in researching and probing the potential leadership (nyinyi Hana wazua), while others will attend a rally get entertained by a few stories and dances and vote. Both the informed vote and the uninformed vote (unfortunately) carry the same weight.

And of course some vitendawili.
tycho
#11 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 4:24:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
ChessMaster, we are talking about powers behind history here.

The world is now connected, and governments and politicians are embracing this connection and what comes with it.

Didn't you see our very own president giving his blessings?

These are exciting times for government. It is a period of restructuring.

For example, the more people are connected the more they move into barter trade. Now add other forms of trade like cultural exchanges that have multiple levels of valuation, and you'll see that monetary policy is diminishing in importance.

How will activities on cyberspace be taxed? There's no other way than to make development proposals to the citizens and asking them to provide the funding. Even fiscal policy must change.

There's no other way for government, it must be restructured.
tycho
#12 Posted : Saturday, February 02, 2013 4:40:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Josiah, perhaps we should begin by asking why we have a representative democracy.

And the answer is that we have not had the benefits conferred by ICT.

Each ministry can now communicate directly with the citizen and even have a discussion as we are having.

The government can now think and work with the citizen. They can create resources together.

Of course this implies a change in government's role. But then everything is changing for the better for everyone.
harrydre
#13 Posted : Sunday, February 03, 2013 5:30:43 PM
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Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
ChessMaster
#14 Posted : Monday, February 04, 2013 2:00:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
tycho wrote:
@Josiah, perhaps we should begin by asking why we have a representative democracy.

And the answer is that we have not had the benefits conferred by ICT.

Each ministry can now communicate directly with the citizen and even have a discussion as we are having.

The government can now think and work with the citizen. They can create resources together.

Of course this implies a change in government's role. But then everything is changing for the better for everyone.


More communication between the government and the citizens is ideal but in a system where a few individuals thrive in the secrecy and ignorance of its citizens,this will have a lot of resistance. But they are attempts to open up government to the people,like this site: https://opendata.go.ke/

@harrydre - I like the idea behind the article.Many leaders forget democracy is supposed to unite us not to be used as a platform to separate the people.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
tycho
#15 Posted : Monday, February 04, 2013 11:24:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Every force must meet 'resistance'. But let us put it into context. This is the evidence for motion.

Imagine a Grand Master playing against a student; won't he meet resistance?

Only the resultant matters.

Think about how Jubilee and Cord had to show how their manifestos had come from the 'grassroots'.

And notice how it was quickly interrogated! That is, which politician will want his manifesto thrown to the dust bin before he is even elected?

Therefore the politician has no alternative but hold perpetual conversation with the voter.

The Kenyan government is doing very well in this matter. It has shown a willingness to move along this historical force.
ChessMaster
#16 Posted : Monday, February 04, 2013 11:41:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
tycho wrote:
Every force must meet 'resistance'. But let us put it into context. This is the evidence for motion.

Imagine a Grand Master playing against a student; won't he meet resistance?

Only the resultant matters.

Think about how Jubilee and Cord had to show how their manifestos had come from the 'grassroots'.

And notice how it was quickly interrogated! That is, which politician will want his manifesto thrown to the dust bin before he is even elected?

Therefore the politician has no alternative but hold perpetual conversation with the voter.

The Kenyan government is doing very well in this matter. It has shown a willingness to move along this historical force.



resistance and motion,very interesting.

When it comes to openness and communication I believe the Kenyan goverment is doing a good job.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
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