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Swearing in of the new President
Liv
#31 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 3:33:28 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
simonkabz wrote:
Just a thought, will the cases of the two run concurrently? if not, the suspects may rule the country in turns, each taking short stints. ........we are royally screwed to borrow a phrase.


Hi Simon,
Your comment here is a good sign.... you can now start seeing the possibilities.

The 2 ICC cases will be determined by the same set of judges. WSR case is the first one. It will start on 10th April. On 10th April UMK does not need to be there.

On 11th April 2013, UMK case will start. WSR does not have to be in the hague on 11th April 2013.

After 10th and 11th other dates will be set on how the cases will continue. But the dates will be different for each case as the judges are the same for the 2 cases.

Liv
#32 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 3:35:42 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
nostoppingthis wrote:
simonkabz wrote:
Just a thought, will the cases of the two run concurrently? if not, the suspects may rule the country in turns, each taking short stints. ........we are royally screwed to borrow a phrase.


Unapanga line kwa duka kununua mkate, and by the time you reach the counter, inflation!!! price imeongezeka...



Inflation does not just happen.... if you went to school you know there are tools to control it.
quicksand
#33 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 3:44:13 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
Thanks @Liv for that very informative link, I had a quick read and I will touch some points ...you have said
Quote:
(referring to cases back to the countries where they were committed and postponing cases for the peace of a country are possible with ICC
...possible, not probable. The article said that the court follows principles of common law, of which precedents are very important. None exist for this scenario. Judges will look for solid, overwhelming grounds to make a ruling on what might undermine ICC itself and be a negative precedent in the long run. These overwhelming grounds are lacking because we took our case there and Kenya as a state, not the defendants, needs to apply for the case
to be repatriated. Your supposition that
Quote:
They will make applications on either to bring the case back to Kenya or have it postponed
holds no merit on its own. To get a state organ of Kenya to make the application to get the case back might require an amendment somewhere (I don't see the Judiciary agreeing to do this) or a new law, I do not imagine the opposition will roll with this idea, hence my prediction of "bribery", already as Kenyans we start losing with this development.
Most of the blame for the failures stems from the shortcomings of the former chief prosecutor, not flaws in the statute that established the court. Moreno-Ocampo is out of the picture, his exit making countries opposed to the ICC soften their stance. The super powers will probably never sign the Rome Statute, that won't stop them from creating grief for small countries like Kenya. The superpowers only oppose the court when the prospect of its citizens getting tried there arise; When that is not the case, they turn the wrench and make the appropriate noises on the small prey of a country that happens to be entangled in ICC's claws. It is double standards , I am aware and concede that fact but that is the way it is.
Most of the harm to Kenya, IMO, will not be from the proceedings themselves, but from any deliberate effort to avoid them on the one hand. Ironically on the other hand full compliance will also spell trouble.
We are caught between ICC's ambition to legitimize itself on the international stage, some countries duplicity and our own politicians avarice and thirst for power, and no matter where the dice rolls on an UHURUTO that is in power, citizens will suffer because of these 3 factors.
simonkabz
#34 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:00:28 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
harrydre wrote:
al bashir refused to cooperate and Sudan is still kicking. no big deal icc would hate to be snobbed by everyone so they going to flex the rules in case uhuruto win


It's such careless statements that make me sick.

List of failed states from the bottom
1. Somalia
2. DRC
3. Sudan
4. South Sudan
5. Chad
6. Zimbabwe.

Sudan still kicking?? You will be happy if we join them?
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
Much Know
#35 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:02:04 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,589
After elections Kenya simply needs to inform ICC that we do not intend to remain a party to the ICC treaty. Three former treaty members -Israel, Sudan and the United States—have informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their former representatives' signature of the Statute
It is not a big deal as some believe.

NOTE: Contrary to what some appear to believe, ICC is NOT the highest or best court in the world, it is an international court in the context of JKIA airport or a referral court in the context of Kenyatta Teaching and referral hospital. You can even start your own International Court and look for signatories to your treaty if you want.

Judge Hans Peter Kaul issued a dissenting opinion in both cases. In these opinions he asserted that he continues to believe that the ICC lacks jurisdiction ratione materiae over the situation in Kenya. His assertion was that the although crimes were committed they were not of a nature which constitute crimes against humanity within the jurisdiction of the ICC. It is enough to dump ICC legally.
Ras Kienyeji Man
quicksand
#36 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:08:48 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
Much Know wrote:
After elections Kenya simply needs to inform ICC that we do not intend to remain a party to the ICC treaty. Three former treaty members -Israel, Sudan and the United States—have informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their former representatives' signature of the Statute
It is not a big deal as some believe.

NOTE: Contrary to what some appear to believe, ICC is NOT the highest or best court in the world, it is an international court in the context of JKIA airport or a referral court in the context of Kenyatta Teaching and referral hospital. You can even start your own International Court and look for signatories to your treaty if you want.

Judge Hans Peter Kaul issued a dissenting opinion in both cases. In these opinions he asserted that he continues to believe that the ICC lacks jurisdiction ratione materiae over the situation in Kenya. His assertion was that the although crimes were committed they were not of a nature which constitute crimes against humanity within the jurisdiction of the ICC. It is enough to dump ICC legally.



How high in Jubilee does this kind of thinking go? Can we expect manoeuvres towards this end if and after UHURUTO get elected?
Much Know
#37 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:13:31 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,589
quicksand wrote:
Much Know wrote:
After elections Kenya simply needs to inform ICC that we do not intend to remain a party to the ICC treaty. Three former treaty members -Israel, Sudan and the United States—have informed the UN Secretary General that they no longer intend to become states parties and, as such, have no legal obligations arising from their former representatives' signature of the Statute
It is not a big deal as some believe.

NOTE: Contrary to what some appear to believe, ICC is NOT the highest or best court in the world, it is an international court in the context of JKIA airport or a referral court in the context of Kenyatta Teaching and referral hospital. You can even start your own International Court and look for signatories to your treaty if you want.

Judge Hans Peter Kaul issued a dissenting opinion in both cases. In these opinions he asserted that he continues to believe that the ICC lacks jurisdiction ratione materiae over the situation in Kenya. His assertion was that the although crimes were committed they were not of a nature which constitute crimes against humanity within the jurisdiction of the ICC. It is enough to dump ICC legally.



How high in Jubilee does this kind of thinking go? Can we expect manoeuvres towards this end if and after UHURUTO get elected?

It's for ICC to choose whether they want countries (and funding) abandoning them, they will probably do the necessary (refer back the cases) before we try anything, that is why they postponed the hearings to allow for elections. The candidates cannot openly take the above line, they will just say they will cooperate till after the elections, the ICC will do the necessary before us, it is that simple.
Ras Kienyeji Man
nostoppingthis
#38 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:14:26 PM
Rank: Chief

Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
Liv wrote:
nostoppingthis wrote:
simonkabz wrote:
Just a thought, will the cases of the two run concurrently? if not, the suspects may rule the country in turns, each taking short stints. ........we are royally screwed to borrow a phrase.


Unapanga line kwa duka kununua mkate, and by the time you reach the counter, inflation!!! price imeongezeka...



Inflation does not just happen.... if you went to school you know there are tools to control it.


Nipe link nisome tafadhali...sasa nimerudi shule!
Liv
#39 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:15:25 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/14/2006
Posts: 1,311
@Quicksand,
Kenya as one of the states of the UN can make various applications to ICC.

Previously when The Kibaki government made an application, an opposing equivalent was made by ODM which claimed they were also part of the same government. so nothing happened (In retrospect if ODM supported these initiatives.... UK and WR would not have been as strong as they are politically now).

With the election of UK and WR their government will speak with one voice. They can make applications to have the cases tried in Kenya (there is evidence for an independent judiciary now) or postponed. They can get support from other African countries..... If you remember UK had started visiting neighboring countries for this support.

Since ICC is a young institution and is not fully supported by UN security council major powers, it will tend to look for support from anywhere for its own survival....including African countries. Ocampo failed because some countries concluded he is a lone ranger and he did not want to cooperate with them. His successor is keen to have support from as many nations as possible to ensure the ICC decisions can be enforced by all the Nations. (Remember ICC does not have any forces of its own.) That is how ICC will try to succeed. It must make decisions with that in mind... otherwise it will become irrelevant.

Kenya's case will be a test for them especially if most African countries are supporting Kenya's application. It may make or break ICC.
B.Timer
#40 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 4:17:44 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
Liv wrote:
simonkabz wrote:
Just a thought, will the cases of the two run concurrently? if not, the suspects may rule the country in turns, each taking short stints. ........we are royally screwed to borrow a phrase.


Hi Simon,
Your comment here is a good sign.... you can now start seeing the possibilities.

The 2 ICC cases will be determined by the same set of judges. WSR case is the first one. It will start on 10th April. On 10th April UMK does not need to be there.

On 11th April 2013, UMK case will start. WSR does not have to be in the hague on 11th April 2013.

After 10th and 11th other dates will be set on how the cases will continue. But the dates will be different for each case as the judges are the same for the 2 cases.



Purely for purposes of debate, lets tag along with this line of thought!

The hearing dates are spread to accommodate the suspects schedules.

Then come October 2013, the cases are determined that both are guilty!

I guess the jail term will be put on hold till they .... well, I don't know when, maybe the Court will ask them when they intend to serve their jail terms!!
Dunia ni msongamano..
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