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This is purely Assault ,is it worth persuing in court
tycho
#21 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 11:13:20 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
tycho wrote:
tycho wrote:
Elder wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
tycho wrote:
One can even press for the assault charges and win.

you mean damages? Would a court hear a tort case while a criminal case on which it depends is yet to be concluded?

Yes.


Like in this situation, won't all statements point towards a crime that would have needed some 'violence' inorder to enforce the law?


I think I now know why the answer is 'yes'. 'Innocent until proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt'.

Right?


Wrong!

These are laws. So it depends on the lawyer who stands before the judge.

Perfect!
mawinder
#22 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 11:33:34 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
tycho wrote:
tycho wrote:
Elder wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
tycho wrote:
One can even press for the assault charges and win.

you mean damages? Would a court hear a tort case while a criminal case on which it depends is yet to be concluded?

Yes.


Like in this situation, won't all statements point towards a crime that would have needed some 'violence' inorder to enforce the law?


I think I now know why the answer is 'yes'. 'Innocent until proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt'.

Right?

There is no tortious liability here.This is purely criminal matter. @jired,updates on how the matter goes.
richdad
#23 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 11:42:56 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/12/2010
Posts: 474
Location: Nairobi
Are you sure the notes were not fake? The stories involving "friends" are always very scary. Its not about winning or losing the case, its about what you get either way.

If you are rich get a lawyer and go on with the case. If you have other more important things to do settle it out of court then find ways of raining blows to the idiot (If you must).

This is Kenya and your small case will take years in court. Lawyers will take all the cash and you will get more dents from it than you already have.
Keep it simple
accelriskconsult
#24 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 1:13:05 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/2/2011
Posts: 629
Location: Nai
The case hinges on proof that;

1. The agent assaulted the friend (why would he resort to assault instead of reporting to police, rejecting the proferred money). If there is a medical report, you have a good case.
2. Researching the agents background to establish whether there is a pattern of deceit and violence.
3. Finding other victims of the alleged con. The landlords would normally have received complaints if there is a pattern.
4. Establishing that the fake money in the agent's possession was more than the 10k.
Elder
#25 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 1:59:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/7/2010
Posts: 2,148
Location: elderville
tycho wrote:
tycho wrote:
tycho wrote:
Elder wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
tycho wrote:
One can even press for the assault charges and win.

you mean damages? Would a court hear a tort case while a criminal case on which it depends is yet to be concluded?

Yes.


Like in this situation, won't all statements point towards a crime that would have needed some 'violence' inorder to enforce the law?


I think I now know why the answer is 'yes'. 'Innocent until proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt'.

Right?


Wrong!

These are laws. So it depends on the lawyer who stands before the judge.

Perfect!

@tychos, I was not addressing the merits of the case here.

The question I answered is whether a court can hear a tort case while the criminal one is going on. The answer to that is yes. The fact that the state is prosecuting your assailant for assault does not mean that you can't institute a civil case for battery (in tort it is not assault but battery). I can't remember well but the law was changed sometime back (or something like that) to provide that a criminal action against someone is not a bar to civil action against the same person and or vice versa.

And FYI in a criminal case the threshold is 'beyond reasonable doubt' while for a civil case it is 'on a balance of probabilities'.
He who can express in words the ardour of his love, has but little love to express. - Petrach, Son. (That men by various ways arrive at the same end. - Montaigne, The Essays of.)
Elder
#26 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 2:02:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/7/2010
Posts: 2,148
Location: elderville
mawinder wrote:
tycho wrote:
tycho wrote:
Elder wrote:
Lolest! wrote:
tycho wrote:
One can even press for the assault charges and win.

you mean damages? Would a court hear a tort case while a criminal case on which it depends is yet to be concluded?

Yes.


Like in this situation, won't all statements point towards a crime that would have needed some 'violence' inorder to enforce the law?


I think I now know why the answer is 'yes'. 'Innocent until proven guilty, beyond reasonable doubt'.

Right?

There is no tortious liability here.This is purely criminal matter. @jired,updates on how the matter goes.

Shame on you Shame on you You may want to be sure of what you are talking about before being so certain about it; you would otherwise mislead people like in this instance.
He who can express in words the ardour of his love, has but little love to express. - Petrach, Son. (That men by various ways arrive at the same end. - Montaigne, The Essays of.)
2012
#27 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 2:35:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
That guy should sue and have the agent arrested for assault. Clearly this is system the agent has created to launder fake money.

BBI will solve it
:)
jjred
#28 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 3:09:21 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 63
Thanks to all for your contribution.

As I said earlier, the guy was released on bond on that very day and was to appear on court today (Monday the 7nth)We managed to get some money for an advocate to open a file. So they appeared on court in the morning but the case was deferred till tomorrow for luck of enough evident. So the police went to do more investigation
Meanwhile, the guy had gone for treatment and already has a medical report, we are just praying that all goes well.

But he is very confident that the notes given to him were not fake. His friend had an ATM receipt for the notes, he removed them from his pockets, gave them to this guy who folded them and placed them in his wallet yet the fake notes according to him were very straight and note folded.

But as someone had said here, it’s true that there are very many innocent people rotting in jail.
mawinder
#29 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 3:19:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
@jired,something is missing from your thread.Did he take a plea and who asked that the case be deferred?
jjred
#30 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 4:13:18 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 63
Since i was not there,the information i have just gotten on my follow up is that the case was deffered,even though the lawyer was present,he did nothing since even his file had not been opened,he also told me that police did not have enough evident
XSK
#31 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 4:30:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/8/2009
Posts: 975
Location: Nairobi
jjred wrote:
Thanks to all for your contribution.

As I said earlier, the guy was released on bond on that very day and was to appear on court today (Monday the 7nth)We managed to get some money for an advocate to open a file. So they appeared on court in the morning but the case was deferred till tomorrow for luck of enough evident. So the police went to do more investigation
Meanwhile, the guy had gone for treatment and already has a medical report, we are just praying that all goes well.

But he is very confident that the notes given to him were not fake. His friend had an ATM receipt for the notes, he removed them from his pockets, gave them to this guy who folded them and placed them in his wallet yet the fake notes according to him were very straight and note folded.

But as someone had said here, it’s true that there are very many innocent people rotting in jail.


That statement made very little sense previously now it makes a lot of sense.
You will know that you have arrived when money and time are not mutually exclusive "events" in you life!
tycho
#32 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 4:44:53 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@Elder, I get your point. By mentioning the judge I was looking at the grounds of admissibility.

Thank you for the reminder on the thresholds of evidence. It has clarified my ideas of relations.
jjred
#33 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 5:44:41 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 63
@XSK....its very true,infact,the clark who connected him to the lawyer currently acting on his behalf told him that 3/4 of prisoners are very innocent but for one reason or the other,they find themselves locked in.
CaptainGG
#34 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 6:06:25 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 10/13/2011
Posts: 67
Location: Kenya
@Jired, am almost sure the cops thought your guy would refuse to attend court and forfeit the cash bail which they would have readily shared as they usually do. They now have to look for evidence to prove your guy guilty. I hope you can afford the legal fees coz the case may take long.
Drunkard
#35 Posted : Monday, January 07, 2013 7:47:39 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
I think the wrong person was arrested! It is only in Kenya that things like this happen!
jjred
#36 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:17:35 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 3/29/2011
Posts: 63
Jesus Christ,the Magistrate is now asking for Ksh.40,000 for the guy to be released.Its so sad
alma
#37 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:24:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
jjred wrote:
Jesus Christ,the Magistrate is now asking for Ksh.40,000 for the guy to be released.Its so sad


My friend, heed this advice. The magistrates in Kenya are just as qualified as the Baragoi fake policeman.

Don't believe what the lawyer tells you about an easy case in the magistrates court. If you don't believe me, sit down at that court room and also visit Industrial area. You will come out a changed man.

Find a way to talk to the complainant. Settle it out of court is the best advice I can give you. You may pay him money but it will be less than the cost of the lawyer.

The truth of the matter which lawyers are not going to tell you lest the fail to make the rental payments in

Guilty people have a higher chance of going free than innocent people in a magistrates court.

Don't ever forget, magistrates are usually the worst students in law school. You can compare them to the D+ cops.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
mawinder
#38 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:42:15 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
alma wrote:
jjred wrote:
Jesus Christ,the Magistrate is now asking for Ksh.40,000 for the guy to be released.Its so sad


My friend, heed this advice. The magistrates in Kenya are just as qualified as the Baragoi fake policeman.

Don't believe what the lawyer tells you about an easy case in the magistrates court. If you don't believe me, sit down at that court room and also visit Industrial area. You will come out a changed man.

Find a way to talk to the complainant. Settle it out of court is the best advice I can give you. You may pay him money but it will be less than the cost of the lawyer.

The truth of the matter which lawyers are not going to tell you lest the fail to make the rental payments in

Guilty people have a higher chance of going free than innocent people in a magistrates court.

Don't ever forget, magistrates are usually the worst students in law school. You can compare them to the D+ cops.

At least he has been given an option of cash bail.@alma the complainant i suppose you are referring to is a mere witness and cannot withdraw the case for the fake currency.About your views on magistrates and lawyers,I disagree.
alma
#39 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 10:44:24 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
mawinder wrote:

At least he has been given an option of cash bail.@alma the complainant i suppose you are referring to is a mere witness and cannot withdraw the case for the fake currency.About your views on magistrates and lawyers,I disagree.


I'm really hoping that you aren't one of the ones I have mentioned. As twice in this post you have got it wrong.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
tycho
#40 Posted : Tuesday, January 08, 2013 11:19:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Very sad. One has to be very cautious in Kenya. Even when giving a bribe you are walking into a carefully set trap.

'So a strategy may be to go to a witch doctor, make the assailant eat grass. His family will pursue. Make them make a deal with the prosecutor and the magistrate in extension' (speculations of a mad man- please don't follow).
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