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March 4 2013 Referedum on ICC!
B.Timer
#1 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:22:50 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076


By their very own utterances as quoted in the Media, Ruto and his Comrade in ....eerr.., ok, ICC indictment, the coming General elections will essentially be a referendum on ICC!


Never mind that, this kind of posturing by its very own self, amounts to an affront on the ICC by an accused person under the court – a matter that portends serious consequences that could include being put under confinement as the case proceeds.

Be that as it may,

Post March 4 2013, one wonders what Ruto and Co will tell us after they are handed a resounding loss at the elections.

Following on their logic, Kenya will have voted that they submit fully to ICC. Hope they won’t change the story!
Dunia ni msongamano..
josiah33
#2 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 12:55:05 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
B.Timer wrote:


By their very own utterances as quoted in the Media, Ruto and his Comrade in ....eerr.., ok, ICC indictment, the coming General elections will essentially be a referendum on ICC!


Never mind that, this kind of posturing by its very own self, amounts to an affront on the ICC by an accused person under the court – a matter that portends serious consequences that could include being put under confinement as the case proceeds.

Be that as it may,

Post March 4 2013, one wonders what Ruto and Co will tell us after they are handed a resounding loss at the elections.

Following on their logic, Kenya will have voted that they submit fully to ICC. Hope they won’t change the story!

Depends on the percentage they lose with. If they lose, a majority would have given the ICC thumbs up, but even then, Kenya would have said YES to ICC. And that's following their logic.
mawinder
#3 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 2:42:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
josiah33 wrote:
B.Timer wrote:


By their very own utterances as quoted in the Media, Ruto and his Comrade in ....eerr.., ok, ICC indictment, the coming General elections will essentially be a referendum on ICC!


Never mind that, this kind of posturing by its very own self, amounts to an affront on the ICC by an accused person under the court – a matter that portends serious consequences that could include being put under confinement as the case proceeds.

Be that as it may,

Post March 4 2013, one wonders what Ruto and Co will tell us after they are handed a resounding loss at the elections.

Following on their logic, Kenya will have voted that they submit fully to ICC. Hope they won’t change the story!

Depends on the percentage they lose with. If they lose, a majority would have given the ICC thumbs up, but even then, Kenya would have said YES to ICC. And that's following their logic.

A true referendum but consider the fact that they may win the election.
josiah33
#4 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:42:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
mawinder wrote:
josiah33 wrote:
B.Timer wrote:


By their very own utterances as quoted in the Media, Ruto and his Comrade in ....eerr.., ok, ICC indictment, the coming General elections will essentially be a referendum on ICC!


Never mind that, this kind of posturing by its very own self, amounts to an affront on the ICC by an accused person under the court – a matter that portends serious consequences that could include being put under confinement as the case proceeds.

Be that as it may,

Post March 4 2013, one wonders what Ruto and Co will tell us after they are handed a resounding loss at the elections.

Following on their logic, Kenya will have voted that they submit fully to ICC. Hope they won’t change the story!

Depends on the percentage they lose with. If they lose, a majority would have given the ICC thumbs up, but even then, Kenya would have said YES to ICC. And that's following their logic.

A true referendum but consider the fact that they may win the election.

If that's the case, then kenyans will be telling the ICC to go to hell.
tycho
#5 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:03:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
And will they say that because the Kenyan courts have cleared them to run, then their innocence is proven? (In case, they are cleared)

If no. How can the 'referendum argument' be valid and true?
mawinder
#6 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:18:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.
tycho
#7 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:34:45 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.


Isn't this a different argument? Does it mean the cases can't be put on hold till end of term?

There's nothing like a referendum on the ICC. Not unless we are talking of life presidency.
mawinder
#8 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 11:54:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/30/2008
Posts: 6,029
@tycho,the cases will be on hold as long as they are in power.As for lifetime presidency,you know the constitution provides for a 5 year term with the option of another one 5 year term renewal upon election by at least 50%+1 kenyans and at least 25% of votes in 24 counties.
Much Know
#9 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 12:37:43 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/6/2008
Posts: 3,572
tycho wrote:
And will they say that because the Kenyan courts have cleared them to run, then their innocence is proven? (In case, they are cleared)

If no. How can the 'referendum argument' be valid and true?

The courts(pontious pilate) had already set the believers free for a referendum election, if the cries (kogaloistic) 'crucify them give us barbarus' are over whelming then barabus will stand more or less alone, in the coming elections, but if the shouts of believers 'set the believers free' are louder, then we will see the light if we believe. That's how wisdom works, it isn't perfect but it is better than logic(marxism).
Ras Kienyeji Man
tycho
#10 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 6:29:41 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
Much Know wrote:
tycho wrote:
And will they say that because the Kenyan courts have cleared them to run, then their innocence is proven? (In case, they are cleared)

If no. How can the 'referendum argument' be valid and true?

The courts(pontious pilate) had already set the believers free for a referendum election, if the cries (kogaloistic) 'crucify them give us barbarus' are over whelming then barabus will stand more or less alone, in the coming elections, but if the shouts of believers 'set the believers free' are louder, then we will see the light if we believe. That's how wisdom works, it isn't perfect but it is better than logic(marxism).


I mourn the fate of the nation. Pilate, Barabas, Kogaloists, the believers, all jump from the pan into the fire.

mali ya nguvu
#11 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 2:44:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/7/2009
Posts: 115
Supposing Jubilee wins the elections and then two years down the line the ICC suspects are convicted, what is the position of our constitution in regard to transition?
josiah33
#12 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 3:33:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
tycho wrote:
And will they say that because the Kenyan courts have cleared them to run, then their innocence is proven? (In case, they are cleared)

If no. How can the 'referendum argument' be valid and true?

They are saying that because they must be proven guilty then the local courts have no business stopping them from running for the various offices.
josiah33
#13 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 3:52:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/27/2011
Posts: 1,777
tycho wrote:
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.


Isn't this a different argument? Does it mean the cases can't be put on hold till end of term?

There's nothing like a referendum on the ICC. Not unless we are talking of life presidency.

I think when we are talking of a 'referendum' on the ICC(NB:Referendum in quotes) all we are saying is that we want to find out if the voters(kenyans) really thinks the ICC should even be trying the suspects in the first place. Do we need ICC? That's what we are asking.
Impunity
#14 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 6:01:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,330
Location: Masada
Average votet's thought.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

B.Timer
#15 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 8:13:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.



Lets debunk some myths.

There are three main ways of getting cases to ICC

-By referral by UN security Council.
-The State itself petitioning ICC.
-The ICC prosecutor taking own initiative.

Hence even if Kenya were not party to the Rome charter, chances are that the PEV cases would still have ended up there!

Again, ICC is not subject to Kenya’s constitution. If the Indictees fail to show up for their cases (whether on account of AG advice or not) warrants of arrest will follow.

Thereafter, if the fugitives - as they will be called then,- travel to Rome statute member Countries they will be nabbed and handed to the Hague court.

Even assuming they are elected as President and D. President, (very unlikely if you ask me) and then they choose to travel to Hague for their cases, there is a huge chance that they could be locked in on account of flouting the conditions for remaining free while the cases proceed.

Now Imagine Kenya’s President and/or his deputy locked up in a cold Cell in Holland!
Dunia ni msongamano..
tycho
#16 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 8:20:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
josiah33 wrote:
tycho wrote:
mawinder wrote:
All laws and International conventions ratified by Kenya are part of our laws.The matter went to ICC because Kenya ratified the Rome statute i.e self referral unlike Bashir who was taken there by the UN Council.The constitution provides immunity to all criminal proceedings against a sitting president. When they win the elections expect that advice from the Attorney General.You can take this to I&M bank.


Isn't this a different argument? Does it mean the cases can't be put on hold till end of term?

There's nothing like a referendum on the ICC. Not unless we are talking of life presidency.

I think when we are talking of a 'referendum' on the ICC(NB:Referendum in quotes) all we are saying is that we want to find out if the voters(kenyans) really thinks the ICC should even be trying the suspects in the first place. Do we need ICC? That's what we are asking.


This question you are asking is equal to the question, 'Do we need justice?'

And I am saying it cannot be valid!

Justice cannot be subject to a referendum.

quicksand
#17 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 9:49:27 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/5/2010
Posts: 2,061
Location: Nairobi
mawinder wrote:
@tycho,the cases will be on hold as long as they are in power.As for lifetime presidency,you know the constitution provides for a 5 year term with the option of another one 5 year term renewal upon election by at least 50%+1 kenyans and at least 25% of votes in 24 counties.

There will be no such thing as postponing the case ....they will use that stipulation in the constitution to avoid going to trial, ....then in contravention of international law. A legal quandary, but the Rome statute does not bow to local country laws. The only way is for supreme court to stop the presidential bid, kenya to sign out of the Rome treaty or the constitution to get amended. We wait and see.
xyzee
#18 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 10:10:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 1/9/2009
Posts: 1,262
And the 2 suspects are ready to hold Kenya at ransom in their fight with ICC and some kenyans are actually cheering them on all in the name of RAOPHOBIA? As Obako would say Bure kabisa!
richdad
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 01, 2013 1:25:19 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/12/2010
Posts: 474
Location: Nairobi
Hii yote ni propaganda. Uhuruto any time!!! Can't trust presidency to akina Nyongo' na Raila. Better with suspects!!!
Keep it simple
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic
#20 Posted : Tuesday, January 01, 2013 1:45:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2010
Posts: 2,221
Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
richdad wrote:
Hii yote ni propaganda. Uhuruto any time!!! Can't trust presidency to akina Nyongo' na Raila. Better with suspects!!!

Better vote for Kimenchussmile
@SufficientlyP
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