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KQ orderd to reinstate sacked workers!!!
maka
#41 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 2:24:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
maka wrote:
sparkly wrote:
McReggae wrote:
The industrial court has ordered KQ to reinstate the over 400 sacked workers by tommorrow!!!


What is this?

A tribunal cannot force parties into an employer/ employee relationship. KQ needs to move to the High Court pronto.

...Place a wager,the high court will still uphold the ruling this guys were given a legal opinion by some law firm they chose to ignore the whole thing and did it how they deemed fit according to them,the only solution....swallow your pride and do it as the court has directed...who should be blamed?A statement I came across 'ignorance is not, and never will be,
a defence – CEOs will be judged not on what they know, but on what they should have known'


@Maka there is a serious error of law here. It is a well accepted principle under the common law that an employer/ employee relationship cannot be compelled, otherwise we will have something akin to sanctioned slavery.

The most that a court can order is that employees be dismissed proceduraly and they be paid their dues in full.

...@sparkly Art.162 (2) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 forms the platform upon which the Industrial Court derives its mandate. The Industrial Court has exclusive original and appellate jurisdiction to hear labour and employment matters.With the power donated to it under this provison and also taking into account the jurisdiction conferred by Section 12 of Act 20 of 2011 i.e.The Industrial Court Act and in particular Section 12 (3) (vii) the Industrial court has power to reinstate an employee within 3 years of dismissal subject to such conditions as it may impose.This is the provison that Judge Riika rightly used to reinstate the KQ staff. The argument that an employer cant be compelled to take up an employee is thus fallacious and is not backed by law...in addition to that common law cannot supersede substantive procedural law.
possunt quia posse videntur
dunkang
#42 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 3:59:03 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
NAIKUNI MUST GO

http://www.nation.co.ke/...2/-/10u53bp/-/index.html
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

Swavvy
#43 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 4:14:50 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/30/2008
Posts: 8
Two comments from me for those who think that this ruling is even executable:
1. Has the court also given the staff the flight schedules they are on to make it a reality. In my opinion this staff will never see the inside of a plane as staff again... deal with it.
2. For all contracts, they have an exit clause (for your information employment is a contract unless the KQ staff con confirm otherwise) and if this is breached then all one is entitled to is the exit payments and damages not forceful reinstatement....lol...kweli we have quaks in the Industrial courtShame on you Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you
nakujua
#44 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 4:34:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
Swavvy wrote:
Two comments from me for those who think that this ruling is even executable:
1. Has the court also given the staff the flight schedules they are on to make it a reality. In my opinion this staff will never see the inside of a plane as staff again... deal with it.
2. For all contracts, they have an exit clause (for your information employment is a contract unless the KQ staff con confirm otherwise) and if this is breached then all one is entitled to is the exit payments and damages not forceful reinstatement....lol...kweli we have quaks in the Industrial courtShame on you Shame on you Shame on you Shame on you


go to a quiet place and read through your comment several times
sparkly
#45 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 4:38:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
maka wrote:
sparkly wrote:
maka wrote:
sparkly wrote:
McReggae wrote:
The industrial court has ordered KQ to reinstate the over 400 sacked workers by tommorrow!!!


What is this?

A tribunal cannot force parties into an employer/ employee relationship. KQ needs to move to the High Court pronto.

...Place a wager,the high court will still uphold the ruling this guys were given a legal opinion by some law firm they chose to ignore the whole thing and did it how they deemed fit according to them,the only solution....swallow your pride and do it as the court has directed...who should be blamed?A statement I came across 'ignorance is not, and never will be,
a defence – CEOs will be judged not on what they know, but on what they should have known'


@Maka there is a serious error of law here. It is a well accepted principle under the common law that an employer/ employee relationship cannot be compelled, otherwise we will have something akin to sanctioned slavery.

The most that a court can order is that employees be dismissed proceduraly and they be paid their dues in full.

...@sparkly Art.162 (2) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 forms the platform upon which the Industrial Court derives its mandate. The Industrial Court has exclusive original and appellate jurisdiction to hear labour and employment matters.With the power donated to it under this provison and also taking into account the jurisdiction conferred by Section 12 of Act 20 of 2011 i.e.The Industrial Court Act and in particular Section 12 (3) (vii) the Industrial court has power to reinstate an employee within 3 years of dismissal subject to such conditions as it may impose.This is the provison that Judge Riika rightly used to reinstate the KQ staff. The argument that an employer cant be compelled to take up an employee is thus fallacious and is not backed by law...in addition to that common law cannot supersede substantive procedural law.


@Maka sawa, i have taken judicial notice of those laws.

Where does KQ's right to appeal lie?

Am getting out of this flying monkey of a share Sickamp; Sickamp;
Life is short. Live passionately.
maka
#46 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 5:20:40 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
sparkly wrote:
maka wrote:
sparkly wrote:
maka wrote:
sparkly wrote:
McReggae wrote:
The industrial court has ordered KQ to reinstate the over 400 sacked workers by tommorrow!!!


What is this?

A tribunal cannot force parties into an employer/ employee relationship. KQ needs to move to the High Court pronto.

...Place a wager,the high court will still uphold the ruling this guys were given a legal opinion by some law firm they chose to ignore the whole thing and did it how they deemed fit according to them,the only solution....swallow your pride and do it as the court has directed...who should be blamed?A statement I came across 'ignorance is not, and never will be,
a defence – CEOs will be judged not on what they know, but on what they should have known'


@Maka there is a serious error of law here. It is a well accepted principle under the common law that an employer/ employee relationship cannot be compelled, otherwise we will have something akin to sanctioned slavery.

The most that a court can order is that employees be dismissed proceduraly and they be paid their dues in full.

...@sparkly Art.162 (2) of the Constitution of Kenya 2010 forms the platform upon which the Industrial Court derives its mandate. The Industrial Court has exclusive original and appellate jurisdiction to hear labour and employment matters.With the power donated to it under this provison and also taking into account the jurisdiction conferred by Section 12 of Act 20 of 2011 i.e.The Industrial Court Act and in particular Section 12 (3) (vii) the Industrial court has power to reinstate an employee within 3 years of dismissal subject to such conditions as it may impose.This is the provison that Judge Riika rightly used to reinstate the KQ staff. The argument that an employer cant be compelled to take up an employee is thus fallacious and is not backed by law...in addition to that common law cannot supersede substantive procedural law.


@Maka sawa, i have taken judicial notice of those laws.

Where does KQ's right to appeal lie?

Am getting out of this flying monkey of a share Sickamp; Sickamp;

...KQ can obtain a stay of the order under the Appellate Jurisdiction Act CAP 9 Section 3 and rule 5 (2) (b) of the Court of Appeal rules
possunt quia posse videntur
Drobos fly
#47 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:12:27 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 331
Location: Vantage point
There is a probability that the tables will turn when KQ appeals. That judgement by the industrial court seems populist under some kind of political pressure, but lets wait and see.
dunkang
#48 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:21:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
Drobos fly wrote:
There is a probability that the tables will turn when KQ appeals. That judgement by the industrial court seems populist under some kind of political pressure, but lets wait and see.


KQ has already commited itself to accepting the staff already. They have already handed letters asking the workers to go on leave so as they can rearrange themselves to accomodate them. The union has rejected this though.
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

Drobos fly
#49 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 6:42:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 331
Location: Vantage point
dunkang wrote:

KQ has already commited itself to accepting the staff already. They have already handed letters asking the workers to go on leave so as they can rearrange themselves to accomodate them. The union has rejected this though.


This is a chess game KQ is playing. Their vacant positions were filled by foreigners. Remember what happened when Telkom was being taken over by Orange? Most professional personnel were given jobs they didn't want in short raw deals at the same salary. I wouldn't even want to go back to a place am not wanted, the best thing is just to move on.
dunkang
#50 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 10:09:48 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
Drobos fly wrote:
dunkang wrote:

KQ has already commited itself to accepting the staff already. They have already handed letters asking the workers to go on leave so as they can rearrange themselves to accomodate them. The union has rejected this though.


This is a chess game KQ is playing. Their vacant positions were filled by foreigners. Remember what happened when Telkom was being taken over by Orange? Most professional personnel were given jobs they didn't want in short raw deals at the same salary. I wouldn't even want to go back to a place am not wanted, the best thing is just to move on.


@Drobos, i feel your pain but KQ can't win this case at all. Naikuni was misadviced by the company secretary big time. Mistreatment of the employees will lead to further loses for KQ. It should focus now on making use of the huge workforce.
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

Impunity
#51 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:01:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
Jamani wrote:
Just thinking of the effects to shareholders and share price......


Sub-10 by this Friday!
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Impunity
#52 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:13:13 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
kollabo wrote:
Where is the KQ lawyer who refused to "freeze" when an MP is talking?


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly

And you remind me of that scenario. How do you force a grown up man with body temperature of 37 degree Celsius to freeze in a room temperature of 25 degree?
Eish, even if the guy was seating on a sofa-ice he wont freeze fully.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Jamani
#53 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:17:54 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
Drobos fly wrote:
There is a probability that the tables will turn when KQ appeals. That judgement by the industrial court seems populist under some kind of political pressure, but lets wait and see.


i thought the judiciary had reformed and is now independent..... do we still have political pressure influencing judgement?
Impunity
#54 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:34:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2009
Posts: 26,328
Location: Masada
mazingira wrote:
Just an observation BA are cutting 400 jobs too ...it's on bbc news


BA is a Mammoth so 400 is a drop in a sea.
Portfolio: Sold
You know you've made it when you get a parking space for your yatcht.

Drobos fly
#55 Posted : Tuesday, December 04, 2012 11:57:16 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 331
Location: Vantage point
dunkang wrote:


@Drobos, i feel your pain but KQ can't win this case at all. Naikuni was misadviced by the company secretary big time. Mistreatment of the employees will lead to further loses for KQ. It should focus now on making use of the huge workforce.


The court made accusations which KQ had failed to do in order to warrant a retrenchment. Now say employees are reinstated. To make sure the case works for them this time, conditions may be arranged such that retrenchment will be the only way out.. its more like a rat trap, you bait it with food under the false pretense it will benefit when it's inside, but really the end is to rid of it right? I can't see it any other way coz the fastest way to cut losses is through lay offs (employees are an appreciating cost) because you have salaries as an expense to the company not an asset.

Same thing if you want to fly a plane and you realize that the plane can't lift off the first thing on your mind is offload excess language, not to go back to the garage and add a few more engines to give it the necessary thrust
Drobos fly
#56 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 12:08:07 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/24/2012
Posts: 331
Location: Vantage point
Jamani wrote:

i thought the judiciary had reformed and is now independent..... do we still have political pressure influencing judgement?


Lets take a practical example that happened recently not to long ago. Say I am an influential politician I comment "So and so should be reinstated back to work". Even before that comments becomes vaguely remembered you see things happening in sync with the comment. What do you call that?
Jamani
#57 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:31:03 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/12/2006
Posts: 1,554
Drobos fly wrote:
Jamani wrote:

i thought the judiciary had reformed and is now independent..... do we still have political pressure influencing judgement?


Lets take a practical example that happened recently not to long ago. Say I am an influential politician I comment "So and so should be reinstated back to work". Even before that comments becomes vaguely remembered you see things happening in sync with the comment. What do you call that?


I just call it a comment not political interference or political influence....
and what if from the same politician the comment has legal sound bases and the judge rules using the same legal bases what will you call it? Look at the MRC cases, Embakasi Mp case, Kibs cases where he has appointed without regard of the law, politicians made comments would you say the courts ruled based on political influence or the law?
Does it mean that if a political makes a comment on any legal matter then its political interference? do you imply that the judge made his ruling based on the comment and not legal facts?
McReggae
#58 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:38:40 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
I blame this on Naikuni's arrogance when he was down sizing!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
Pesa Nane
#59 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:45:07 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
Drobos fly wrote:

The court made accusations which KQ had failed to do in order to warrant a retrenchment. Now say employees are reinstated. To make sure the case works for them this time, conditions may be arranged such that retrenchment will be the only way out.. its more like a rat trap, you bait it with food under the false pretense it will benefit when it's inside, but really the end is to rid of it right? I can't see it any other way coz the fastest way to cut losses is through lay offs (employees are an appreciating cost) because you have salaries as an expense to the company not an asset.

Same thing if you want to fly a plane and you realize that the plane can't lift off the first thing on your mind is offload excess language, not to go back to the garage and add a few more engines to give it the necessary thrust

I guess luggage
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
King G
#60 Posted : Wednesday, December 05, 2012 9:47:16 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/20/2012
Posts: 3,855
Location: Othumo
McReggae wrote:
I blame this on Naikuni's arrogance when he was down sizing!!!!


Management should have followed the laid down procedures based on both Kenya labour laws and their own internal policies and procedures. for me the guy who should be taking the beating on this one is the HR Director because this problem has been created in his technical domain.

Guys, by the way it is not that you cannot retrench or carry out redudancy process. But you MUST do it within the confines of the law!
Thieves
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