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Waiting to exhale on this Nairobi City!!!!
sparkly
#61 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 5:32:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2009
Posts: 8,083
Location: Enk are Nyirobi
KenyanLyrics wrote:
How will there be a burst? The people pumping money into real estate are mostly using cash. This means that there are hardly any creditors to call in what they are owed, which is usually what triggers a bubble burst.

The painful reality is there are just some things that Kenyans are suckers for, and will buy at whatever cost. Even when you look at other billion shilling industries, such as cars, phones, electronic gadgets etc, Kenyans buy those things at obscenely inflated prices, but since they are all using cash, there is no bubble to burst.


Good point!

Mostly businesses take loans. Individuals borrow from SACCOs.
Life is short. Live passionately.
murchr
#62 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 6:18:32 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
ChessMaster wrote:
Lets start talking demand so we can understand this whole situation better? Is the demand based on need of new house/apartments or people wanting to change houses?


@Vj. You have spoken like 3 wise men.
ChessMaster, let me help you understand. Those who bought apartments around 2003 have grown out of their hse now and are thinking of upgrading into new houses with space and social ammenities like schools, shopping centers near them.

Then there are those who are now tired of paying rent and are thinking, why not pay this money to a bank as mortgage payments, after all its kinda the same...
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
ChessMaster
#63 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 7:56:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
@murchr - This group that wants to move to home ownership from paying rent,won't they leave apartments for the others to acquire? Will this not affect the market apartments?

A bubble isn't necessarily caused by credit.It is fuelled by credit. My view of Kenyan real estate is this. Real estate is one of the prominent investment avenues Kenyans consider. The buy, hold and sell strategy that everyone believes to be true. I think in the beginning there was demand for land.Then speculators started entering the market and things changed. Now demand became superficial and not based on real demand(based on utility).What I believe is happening is speculators are mostly selling to themselves and creating the bubble. One speculator buys land sells it to another speculator after a price rise. The second speculator sells the land to the third speculator and it goes on. The speculators also target a new area and the cycle goes on. Now wazuans,these are my thoughts dissect them thoroughly so I can get my wrong assumptions behind me.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
sentinel prime
#64 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:39:40 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 11/12/2012
Posts: 92
I had written a lenghty post about land valuation during independence and the decades after.....the stage of economic growth and historical inflation rates but I cancelled it. Why? its naive to argue.

let's sit back and relax...at least piracy money in eastleigh kwisha, for a start ....
Mukiri
#65 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 8:55:37 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/11/2012
Posts: 5,222
Vj wrote:
The only thing that can cause a massive price crash is political instability. Our economy is glued to politics and if things get haywire, a huge number of people will be left unable to pay their mortgages resulting in a surge in defaults and over the roof foreclosures. There will be a massive oversupply in houses with no buyers and no lenders in the pictures. All the big money will move out and it’ll take years to rebuild.

Otherwise its very unlikely for the market to crash, however a correction has been on the table from 2010 but hasn’t seriously shown its face in the market yet. The nation article lists the following as a cause of a bubble:

“low bank interest rates, variable rate loans, easy-to-get credit, a willingness of home buyers to take out second and third mortgages, long-term repayment terms and mortgages that exceed the value of the home”


How many of the above factors do you think apply to our situation? I can tell you for a fact that Kenyan banks don’t hand out money like fools and it’s almost unlikely that you’ll get a mortgage beyond what you can afford.

The real reason behind Nairobi prices is an emerging middle class, yes there are many new IT guys, lawyers and other professionals who have the earning power (not seen in moi days) to afford houses and apartments within prime estates, the second crop of people are those who bought apartments early on and are now moving to villas. It also needs to be understood that these people have their lifestyles entrenched in the area they live in i.e. schools, church, shopping, social circles etc. So until we have the necessary infrastructure to complement this lifestyle outside the city, Nairobi will be a residential hotspot. The opening of thika highway is not enough to dampen the market, at least 3 other highways originating in areas which can provide the same alternative lifestyle are needed.

Such infrastructure wouldn’t come overnight, it would take around 20-30 years. Meanwhile Nairobi is an expanding hub, coupled with the oil discovery and increasing population which is likely to earn more, there is no way a crash is imminent.

Please don’t compare the general American real estate market to ours; we operate on completely different dynamics. The house posted on this thread is in florida, a place where there are is no significant economic or employment opportunity yet it has a serious housing oversupply. Secondly suburban houses in America are made of wood and prefab boards thus the cost is lower than a proper Kenyan house made of stone and concrete. Thirdly most of our finishing are imported and thus overpriced, so if you want quality you got to pay for it. If you really feel the need to compare then compare our market with places with limited infrastructure or no room to expand like Sao Paulo or Manhattan and let us know what you find.

In 2001 I sold 4 bedroom apartments in westlands for 1.8 million, so I know a rough market and trust me we are still far from it. An apartment project which started in January is already 65% sold with around half the buyers coming in with cash. My completed projects i.e offices, apartments and villas are almost sold out, just one or two units remaining on every project. The guys who are facing problems right now are those who have no clue what real estate is about, they saw people making money, thought its an easy game and jumped right in. A correction would be a nice way to weed them out.

And @Rapudox: Start making that 150,000 work for you and you'll be where you want in a few years.



Get me a similar apartment for a similar price and I'll sing your praises everywhere! tismukiri et oohay dt kom.Pray

Proverbs 19:21
Pesa Nane
#66 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:17:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
Beware:
1. Developer are sustained by credit + your 10% off-plan deposit. That already explains the delays (and even stalling) in most projects because of the high interest rates of 2011.
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
Pesa Nane
#67 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:19:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
Beware:
2. Artificial Demand: There are not many buyers but a few who are buying in multiples with view to sell. That explains the low occupancy rates in the completed projects
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
itz
#68 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:24:09 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/20/2009
Posts: 348
itz wrote:
guru267 wrote:
murchr wrote:
guru267 wrote:
devolution next year will lead to a fall in land prices around Nairobi!..


How? Explain using examples


I have been to ruiru and kiambu county and these areas could compare easily to Karen & runda in a few years with the housing construction & infrastructure.. But there are huge discrepancies in land prices (Karen = 40M @acre & kiambu = 8M @acre)

Devolution will also reduce demand for property in Nairobi as Kenyans begin to feel comfortable living and working in their own counties!

This will probably lead to lower prices around Nairobi and higher land prices in the other counties.. So you know where to buy! smile


yes Kiambu county will appreciate in the coming years as it becomes the suburb area of choice for many.However this will not be the same for all the other counties until as someone here very well pointed out that people will move out of nairobi area to the counties if big employers relocate or establish new business in the counties. All the big players have just relocated their HQs from CBD to upperhill or westlands.They clearly have no plans to leave nairobi in the short to medium term.Kiambu county would be my no.1 choice for investment because of proximity to nairobi,it has money and large investors are willing to put money in it.



@Vj. i had expressed almost similar views to yours in that Nairobi has very different dynamics in the way it is setup and the fact that it remains the number one destination for big employers and in the short to medium term it doesn't look like this fact will change.However going forward i think you have to be very tactical so as get returns seen in the last 10 years.I would like to have a short chat with you if you don't mind on matters nairobi real estate.my email is its737@yahoo.com.cheers
Pesa Nane
#69 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:24:46 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
Beware:
3. Cash Buyers. Most of these buyers can afford a single unit but pay the 10% off-plan deposit for several units. They aim to sell on completion without even paying full amount, strategy of transfer of rights to third parties. The domino will start when these 'cash buyers' have no-one to sell to on completion of projects
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
Rapudox
#70 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 9:47:22 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/30/2010
Posts: 65
Location: Europe
@Pesa Nane..Word!
Pesa Nane
#71 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:00:30 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/25/2012
Posts: 4,105
Location: 08c
Rapudox wrote:
@Pesa Nane..Word!

Beware:
Quote:
The CBK third quarter report indicates that real estate borrowers contributed highest to the number of non-performing loans over the third quarter when gross non-performing loans increased by 5.6 per cent to Sh60.74 billion in September 2012, from Sh57.5 billion in June 2012."
And that is just a tip of the iceberg because as far as these 'cash buyers' are concerned
Quote:
"Prof Ndung’u said the fear is that most people might be taking personal loans to finance housing projects."
SOURCE
Pesa Nane plans to be shilingi when he grows up.
ChessMaster
#72 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:14:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
@Pesa Nane - That CBK report sealed the deal for me.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
dunkang
#73 Posted : Thursday, November 29, 2012 11:36:50 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
Dear developers,
I want first to congratulate you on your hardwork in providing shelter to many.

There is no shortage of buyers of houses in this green city under the sun. Kindly up your game and double your output especially on those 'executive luxury' apartments in kilimani and hurlingham areas. You can also add a golf course on the roof.

It is by this way that i will be able to migrate from these dirty slums of eastlands where i was born and lived for the last 30 years of my life.

Yours Sincerely,
Dukang
Receive with simplicity everything that happens to you.” ― Rashi

iKenya
#74 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 1:29:30 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/27/2008
Posts: 241
Pesa Nane wrote:
Beware:
3. Cash Buyers. Most of these buyers can afford a single unit but pay the 10% off-plan deposit for several units. They aim to sell on completion without even paying full amount, strategy of transfer of rights to third parties. The domino will start when these 'cash buyers' have no-one to sell to on completion of projects



Walala!!
Quote:
Buy when there's blood in the streets, even if the blood is your own...
ChessMaster
#75 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 2:10:46 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
A big percentage of the Kenyan population is youth. Youth unemployment is high and the average employed Kenyan youth salary is really not high. A good number of them are also being posted outside Nairobi.Isn't this going to affect the real estate market which is banking on this? To top this off,won't future population estimates fall short of the mark because of high unemployment,low salaries and the current trend of people getting married late and having children even later?
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
Seles83
#76 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 4:01:38 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 288
Location: OZ
I pity the guys waiting for crush..with mortgage rates at 19% and u r talking of a crash..with the rising wages and new FDI..

Africa is projected to grow for the next 30 yrs...minor dips here and there.. expected!!

Save up and leverage up!!..OR Continue whining and complaining...

World is current experiencing wealth transfer from West to East and finally to Africa..where it all started!!..

You can be part of it..or watch it happen..nothing can stop it!!

Expect very big shopping malls, more airports, major freeways, more investment in energy and more industries coming to Kenya...Africa is the next China...

BUT OFCOURSE IF YOU START KILLIN YOURSELVES LIKE 2007....YOU WIlL BE LIKE LIBYA NOW!
More monies, more problems...
ChessMaster
#77 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 5:29:44 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
@Seles83 - 19% is ridiculously high for a mortgage. Africa is projected to grow yes,but where will the resources come from? Between 2030-2050,depending on which expert you follow,world resources will be depleted what will support growth?
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
murchr
#78 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 5:51:02 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
ChessMaster wrote:
@Seles83 - 19% is ridiculously high for a mortgage. Africa is projected to grow yes,but where will the resources come from? Between 2030-2050,depending on which expert you follow,world resources will be depleted what will support growth?


Really???? Please stop watching those conspiracy theory documentaries and youtube channels, and read take time to follow hot money
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
ChessMaster
#79 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 6:09:18 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/23/2009
Posts: 1,626
In less than 200 years we have managed to plunder the world of resources that took it millions of years to build. That is a fact. Lets talk facts,oil is running out with no realizable energy solution in the near future!Fact,air,water and land pollution are at highs never seen in recorded history!Fact,metals are running out!Fact,arable land is running out!Fact,ecosystems and species are dying out! Now tell me the conspiracy in that or what delusion I hold in my statements.
Uncertainty is certain.Let go
murchr
#80 Posted : Friday, November 30, 2012 6:42:32 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
ChessMaster wrote:
In less than 200 years we have managed to plunder the world of resources that took it millions of years to build. That is a fact. Lets talk facts,oil is running out with no realizable energy solution in the near future!Fact,air,water and land pollution are at highs never seen in recorded history!Fact,metals are running out!Fact,arable land is running out!Fact,ecosystems and species are dying out! Now tell me the conspiracy in that or what delusion I hold in my statements.


Please subscribe to online oil magazines, everyday, oil is struck almost everywhere in Africa. Fact, Africa has the largest water reserve, fact, Africa has the largest chunk of arable land,. People will not stop existing because china is hording resources or because butterflies are going extinct. I always like to quote darwin....Survival for the fittest...learn to survive or cease to exist.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
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