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Fatou Bensouda
Kusadikika
#1 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 2:40:25 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 2,703
Somebody please enlighten me. I want to understand this ICC business. Let me share my ignorance or well my understanding of what is going on so that you can correct me.

My thinking was that by the time Louis Moreno Ocampo decided to prosecute 6 Kenyans, he had thoroughly investigated the Post election violence case and had narrowed down on the 6 from a much bigger list. So he systematically went through the list and decided Mr. XYZ did 123. Mr. ABC did 1234, Mr. DEF did 12345, Mr. Ruto did 123456789, Mr. Sang did 123456789 and so on therefore of all the 10 or 20 people I have on the list my investigation suggests that these 6 bear the greatest responsibility. He needed evidence to arrive at his decision to prosecute the 6 and not the others. This evidence must have included witnesses and records and documents to show that the 6 did what they are alleged to have done. So they go for the pretrial and the court actually looks at the evidence and determines that there is enough of it to sustain a trial for 4 people. Evidence against Ali and Kosgey is insufficient or not good enough.

Now when Moreno retired my assumption is he gave the files to Bensouda. The files must have had the evidence to show the 123456789 that Ruto, UK, Sang and Muthaura had done. So my big question is, what is she doing here? What evidence or help does she need the government to help her with that Moreno did not have when he put together the case? Did he not have evidence to prosecute the 4 in the first place? My understanding is that Bensouda is not an investigator and that she has officers who do the work on the ground so what is it that she hopes to accomplish by a very publicized visit that she could not have achieved with a phonecall?

Naomba kuelimishwa na wale wanaoelewa haya mambo.
shygal
#2 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:04:06 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/31/2011
Posts: 90
open the link given in this post- http://wazua.co.ke/forum.aspx?g=posts&t=21065
Rahatupu
#3 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:59:45 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 1,982
Location: matano manne
Kusadikika wrote:
Somebody please enlighten me. I want to understand this ICC business. Let me share my ignorance or well my understanding of what is going on so that you can correct me.

My thinking was that by the time Louis Moreno Ocampo decided to prosecute 6 Kenyans, he had thoroughly investigated the Post election violence case and had narrowed down on the 6 from a much bigger list. So he systematically went through the list and decided Mr. XYZ did 123. Mr. ABC did 1234, Mr. DEF did 12345, Mr. Ruto did 123456789, Mr. Sang did 123456789 and so on therefore of all the 10 or 20 people I have on the list my investigation suggests that these 6 bear the greatest responsibility. He needed evidence to arrive at his decision to prosecute the 6 and not the others. This evidence must have included witnesses and records and documents to show that the 6 did what they are alleged to have done. So they go for the pretrial and the court actually looks at the evidence and determines that there is enough of it to sustain a trial for 4 people. Evidence against Ali and Kosgey is insufficient or not good enough.

Now when Moreno retired my assumption is he gave the files to Bensouda. The files must have had the evidence to show the 123456789 that Ruto, UK, Sang and Muthaura had done. So my big question is, what is she doing here? What evidence or help does she need the government to help her with that Moreno did not have when he put together the case? Did he not have evidence to prosecute the 4 in the first place? My understanding is that Bensouda is not an investigator and that she has officers who do the work on the ground so what is it that she hopes to accomplish by a very publicized visit that she could not have achieved with a phonecall?

Naomba kuelimishwa na wale wanaoelewa haya mambo.


It is about the wider geopolitical competition of the greater East and Central African including the Great Lakes and Horn of Africa. Here the West (read UK, France and USA) feel threatened and seek to have a hand at who succeeds Obako. Third world politics are heavily influenced by intelligence organizations like CIA to manipulate the social order through creating a public policy that is hard to break. This might just be it.

C&P

The objective of their visits are indicators of their identity as the handlers and proxies that are used to deploy and guide a weapon that creates a public policy about the ramifications of Kenyatta and Ruto leadership..............

While majority of Kenyan’s have been taking up everything the ICC and the media has prepared, (as ICC and the West wanted) their current mindset will be their greatest undoing since they hardly have an idea of what the West is doing to stop Kenya’s economic-military growth and the East and Central African economic union............

The West handlers at ICC may have also panicked after Kenya army single handed defeated Al-Shabaab militants by routing them out of the Somali port city of Kismayu after Americans, Britons, and Ethiopians failed. A stronger Kenya with a Kibaki student in the helm will make Nairobi very powerful and extremely military-economic independent that the West will become insignificant to East and Central Africa; these fears are what drives the ICC process and containing any Kibaki student from ascending to power is in-order.
alma
#4 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:08:03 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
This is the problem with Kenya.

In the whole world, just because a case is in court, doesn't mean that investigations have ended.

Infact, both prosecutors and defence attorneys are supposed to continue with investigations even after the case has ended.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
maka
#5 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:29:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 4/22/2010
Posts: 11,522
Location: Nairobi
Lets be honest with ourselves for once...please.Personally I dont mind the ICC being here,I am all for the West doing whatever they can so that whoever ascends to the presidency is a symbol of peace stability and level headedness,they should scheme,come up with all sorts of machinations to prevent whatever happened in 07-08 happening again...truth be told we have failed in almost all areas of governing ourselves,if there iznt pressure from the donors for transparency,we loot all the money,feed ourselves and our families forgetting the people who really deserve it,if we arent sanctioned,we kill each other like flies just coz we have differences in who we want to govern,just coz I support X and you support Y we hack each other,we are epic failures,just imagine during the height of the PEV driving along one of the highways,road blocked by huge boulders by young thugs of one side,car stops,you have to identify yourself,a citizen of Kenya in the 21st century,if you gave the wrong answer...thats the end of you,you get wiped out from the face of the earth just because you came from a particular tribe something you cannot change,something you never got to decide at birth it was so shameful...let the ICC,CIA,FBI,Mossad etc etc do whatever they can to prevent a repeat of what happened,if it means some candidates not vying be it so.
possunt quia posse videntur
nakujua
#6 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:37:59 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/17/2009
Posts: 3,583
Location: Kenya
alma wrote:
This is the problem with Kenya.

In the whole world, just because a case is in court, doesn't mean that investigations have ended.

Infact, both prosecutors and defence attorneys are supposed to continue with investigations even after the case has ended.


I don't think there is a problem with Kenya - its just a clarification being sought concerning what seems to be key evidence that was used to tie the case to a trial - having not been secured or confirmed.
alma
#7 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:38:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
By the way

Is Kusadikika = shygal= rahatupu= david goldman= david james = "i will leave that unnamed"?

Please hide your footprints. One could drive a truck through them.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
alma
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:41:34 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
nakujua wrote:
alma wrote:
This is the problem with Kenya.

In the whole world, just because a case is in court, doesn't mean that investigations have ended.

Infact, both prosecutors and defence attorneys are supposed to continue with investigations even after the case has ended.


I don't think there is a problem with Kenya - its just a clarification being sought concerning what seems to be key evidence that was used to tie the case to a trial - having not been secured or confirmed.


Nothing is ever secured and confirmed. That is why we have trials. That is why investigations never end.

Supposing in your blindness, Bensouda discovers that it wasn't Uhuru but Raila who sent mungiki, would you want her to continue investigating then?
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
McReggae
#9 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 10:59:54 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
Benouda seems far much wittier that Ocampo!!!

......live on TV he is now selecting random speakers from the IDPs not the 1st ones who seemed pre-coached!!!

If the accused are innocent, why are some people worried, why not avail the required info!!!

....have you been watching the Saitoti inqueat, and then you want to be left alone, BOLLOCKS!!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
McReggae
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 11:02:15 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
By the way

Is Kusadikika = shygal= rahatupu= david goldman= david james = "i will leave that unnamed"?

Please hide your footprints. One could drive a truck through them.


BUSTED!!!

Rahatupu starts a thread, no response.......Kusadikika starts another thread, still no response, shygal appears to redirect us the thread earlier started by rahatupu!!!!...then rahatupu appears in the new Kusadikika thread copypasting contents of the link in the earlier rahatupu thread.....kwali kuna maneno!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
kenmac
#11 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:21:00 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 1,793
McReggae wrote:
Benouda seems far much wittier that Ocampo!!!

......live on TV he is now selecting random speakers from the IDPs not the 1st ones who seemed pre-coached!!!

If the accused are innocent, why are some people worried, why not avail the required info!!!

....have you been watching the Saitoti inqueat, and then you want to be left alone, BOLLOCKS!!!!!



why are these guys in identical Tshirts like they have been sponsored? I watched the first guy say Anyang Nyongo was the one calling for mass actions.

Its possible for the Hague crew to hire some "victims" and give lopsided evidence to frame perceived enemies.
......Ecclesiastes
Elder
#12 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:21:56 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/7/2010
Posts: 2,148
Location: elderville
maka wrote:
Lets be honest with ourselves for once...please.Personally I dont mind the ICC being here,I am all for the West doing whatever they can so that whoever ascends to the presidency is a symbol of peace stability and level headedness,they should scheme,come up with all sorts of machinations to prevent whatever happened in 07-08 happening again...truth be told we have failed in almost all areas of governing ourselves,if there iznt pressure from the donors for transparency,we loot all the money,feed ourselves and our families forgetting the people who really deserve it,if we arent sanctioned,we kill each other like flies just coz we have differences in who we want to govern,just coz I support X and you support Y we hack each other,we are epic failures,just imagine during the height of the PEV driving along one of the highways,road blocked by huge boulders by young thugs of one side,car stops,you have to identify yourself,a citizen of Kenya in the 21st century,if you gave the wrong answer...thats the end of you,you get wiped out from the face of the earth just because you came from a particular tribe something you cannot change,something you never got to decide at birth it was so shameful...let the ICC,CIA,FBI,Mossad etc etc do whatever they can to prevent a repeat of what happened,if it means some candidates not vying be it so.

Totally agree. And before we start crying on how we can handle our cases fairly we should start by seriously going after the individual who did the actual killing, raping, looting etc. On the ground most are known and nothing has been done about them apart from a few token cases.
He who can express in words the ardour of his love, has but little love to express. - Petrach, Son. (That men by various ways arrive at the same end. - Montaigne, The Essays of.)
mkeiyd
#13 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 3:41:44 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 1,182
Rahatupu wrote:


It is about the wider geopolitical competition of the greater East and Central African including the Great Lakes and Horn of Africa. Here the West (read UK, France and USA) feel threatened and seek to have a hand at who succeeds Obako. Third world politics are heavily influenced by intelligence organizations like CIA to manipulate the social order through creating a public policy that is hard to break. This might just be it.

C&P

The objective of their visits are indicators of their identity as the handlers and proxies that are used to deploy and guide a weapon that creates a public policy about the ramifications of Kenyatta and Ruto leadership..............

While majority of Kenyan’s have been taking up everything the ICC and the media has prepared, (as ICC and the West wanted) their current mindset will be their greatest undoing since they hardly have an idea of what the West is doing to stop Kenya’s economic-military growth and the East and Central African economic union............

The West handlers at ICC may have also panicked after Kenya army single handed defeated Al-Shabaab militants by routing them out of the Somali port city of Kismayu after Americans, Britons, and Ethiopians failed. A stronger Kenya with a Kibaki student in the helm will make Nairobi very powerful and extremely military-economic independent that the West will become insignificant to East and Central Africa; these fears are what drives the ICC process and containing any Kibaki student from ascending to power is in-order.


Conspiracy theory at its worst.
Better can be done.

Bensouda is doing what a prosecutor does. Gather evidence on a continual base.
Questioning her mandate/mission here unmasks your sympathy for the suspects.
The truth will set us all free.
Rahatupu
#14 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 3:50:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/4/2009
Posts: 1,982
Location: matano manne
mkeiyd wrote:
Rahatupu wrote:


It is about the wider geopolitical competition of the greater East and Central African including the Great Lakes and Horn of Africa. Here the West (read UK, France and USA) feel threatened and seek to have a hand at who succeeds Obako. Third world politics are heavily influenced by intelligence organizations like CIA to manipulate the social order through creating a public policy that is hard to break. This might just be it.

C&P

The objective of their visits are indicators of their identity as the handlers and proxies that are used to deploy and guide a weapon that creates a public policy about the ramifications of Kenyatta and Ruto leadership..............

While majority of Kenyan’s have been taking up everything the ICC and the media has prepared, (as ICC and the West wanted) their current mindset will be their greatest undoing since they hardly have an idea of what the West is doing to stop Kenya’s economic-military growth and the East and Central African economic union............

The West handlers at ICC may have also panicked after Kenya army single handed defeated Al-Shabaab militants by routing them out of the Somali port city of Kismayu after Americans, Britons, and Ethiopians failed. A stronger Kenya with a Kibaki student in the helm will make Nairobi very powerful and extremely military-economic independent that the West will become insignificant to East and Central Africa; these fears are what drives the ICC process and containing any Kibaki student from ascending to power is in-order.


Conspiracy theory at its worst.
Better can be done.

Bensouda is doing what a prosecutor does. Gather evidence on a continual base.
Questioning her mandate/mission here unmasks your sympathy for the suspects.
The truth will set us all free.
.

I have not singled the learned madam for blame, I have only offered to look at the matter from a broader perspective from as varied angles as possible. You will appreciate the fact that ICC resulted from our own denial of the crimes against humanity against our own people (Kenyans). What I am uncomfortable about is the hidden agenda being enjoined with the trials by other forces.
McReggae
#15 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 3:57:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
@Rahatupu
Seeems you agree that you the same as the others above, thought you would defend!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
nostoppingthis
#16 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 4:53:40 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/24/2009
Posts: 5,909
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
nakujua wrote:
alma wrote:
This is the problem with Kenya.

In the whole world, just because a case is in court, doesn't mean that investigations have ended.

Infact, both prosecutors and defence attorneys are supposed to continue with investigations even after the case has ended.


I don't think there is a problem with Kenya - its just a clarification being sought concerning what seems to be key evidence that was used to tie the case to a trial - having not been secured or confirmed.


Nothing is ever secured and confirmed. That is why we have trials. That is why investigations never end.

Supposing in your blindness, Bensouda discovers that it wasn't Uhuru but Raila who sent mungiki, would you want her to continue investigating then?


infact, Tony Gachoka and Miguna should give Bensouda the evidence they have against Jakom ASAP!!!
simonkabz
#17 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 5:06:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
FATAL Ben-sue-duh.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
harrydre
#18 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 5:59:04 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/10/2008
Posts: 9,131
Location: Kanjo
OleItumbi facebook wrote:
Dennis Itumbi
6 hours ago near Nairobi, Kenya
VOICE OF VICTIMS: So Bensouda today skips Naivasha and goes to Nakuru Pipeline IDP camp, she rejects the list of speakers and goes for random contributors and they openly tell her "we know who caused the violence, we reject OTP choice" those are the victims am constantly told to think about in my updates they are saying exactly what i have said....


anybody with this IDP link?
i.am.back!!!!
shygal
#19 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:07:13 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 12/31/2011
Posts: 90
alma wrote:
By the way

Is Kusadikika = shygal= rahatupu= david goldman= david james = "i will leave that unnamed"?

Please hide your footprints. One could drive a truck through them.

so much for conspiracy theory @alma.
alma
#20 Posted : Thursday, October 25, 2012 6:27:27 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
shygal wrote:
alma wrote:
By the way

Is Kusadikika = shygal= rahatupu= david goldman= david james = "i will leave that unnamed"?

Please hide your footprints. One could drive a truck through them.

so much for conspiracy theory @alma.


Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly don't worry, we are all conspiracy theorists. Its part of being wazua. Just the way I think Mcreggae is Impunity.Laughing out loudly
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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