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Would you vote for an openly gay candidate?
hamburglar
#81 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 1:53:34 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/17/2011
Posts: 887
Wendz wrote:
I dont care how long and good and beautiful your blue print is? you can make it green print if you like, but a plug and my vote, its a no, no no no no! I'd rather give it to Waititu!


Good for you, that is democracy at its best....You vote for who you want based on any criteria you like...A candidate being gay is not a game changer in my books.....We are definitely from different schools of thought and my decision to support the gay community might have something to do too with where I am currently based...I am in the US and I have a bunch of gay friends who are nothing but great people with big hearts and that's probably why my decision to stick it out for them might be this skewed in their favor....I don't look at them as gay people, I look at them as Jim, Tony, Joe etc, regular guys....I don't classify people, it smacks of HATE to me when you look at somebody as being gay before you see the humanness in him.....But to each their own, you vote for who you want, it's your right....
hamburglar
#82 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 1:55:16 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 12/17/2011
Posts: 887
McReggae wrote:
@Impunity, huyo shoga amenitukanwo kweli!!!!!



lol, shoga mgani huyo Mcreggae amekutukana?

C'mon dude, if you are going to take shots at me you have to come stronger than that..Kuniita shoga doesn't faze me, tafuteni mchongwano better so that we can all have a good laugh...I like me a good laugh too so let's get witty kiasi...calling me shoga, Side sijui B, South B, South C etc is lame, I know you three can come up with better barbs.....lol..
McReggae
#83 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 8:26:33 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
hamburglar wrote:
McReggae wrote:
@Impunity, huyo shoga amenitukanwo kweli!!!!!



lol, shoga mgani huyo Mcreggae amekutukana?

C'mon dude, if you are going to take shots at me you have to come stronger than that..Kuniita shoga doesn't faze me, tafuteni mchongwano better so that we can all have a good laugh...I like me a good laugh too so let's get witty kiasi...calling me shoga, Side sijui B, South B, South C etc is lame, I know you three can come up with better barbs.....lol..


Like booty rider????
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
tycho
#84 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 9:32:02 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
D32 wrote:
aemathenge wrote:
Where would you draw the line at inter action with one who is gay?

You are a man and discover your male boss is gay: Resign. You are a woman and discover your female boss is a lesbian: Resign.

You now know that the subject of this thread is gay. Supposing he is your biggest customer, does the business relationship cease?

Supposing you are a man and the subject of this thread is the first to a scene where you are an accident victim, would you tell him not to assist you because he is gay?

Ponder that.


Although I do not have a boss, because I am self employed, should I be in a situation where I discover that my boss is a homosexual, I would not resign.

And if he is my client, I would not cut the business relationship.

That lifestyle is their choice, they will face the consequences if they do not change, despite knowing what is right.

In more developed nations, homosexuals tend to be more in number, they do not hide, and many make it obvious by the way they talk, walk, dress etc...

Because I met some on almost a daily basis, I ended up knowing them very well, so well that even if they needed some help with something that I could provide, they'd call me up and likewise, if there was something that they could help me with, I could call them up.

You cannot give them a cold back simply because of their sin, it is because of that open channel of sympathy that there can be hope of light reaching them that they may change.

Would I vote for such a one? No.

Quote:
Homosexuality is blatantly going contrary to human nature.

If they cannot figure out the role of their gender relative to the opposite, neither will I trust them to figure out other things for the society.


To say that you'd not vote for a homosexual is to say that you are aware of all political situations you will face and can face. But this is not true. Moreover, a conversation is a kind of vote.

Heterosexuality can also go against humanity especially when spirituality is forgotten or ignored. In fact, it is when sexuality has been taken for granted that people will start seeking 'other forms of experience'.

After all, cats, dogs, ducks. . . also exhibit heterosexuality.
D32
#85 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 10:24:39 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 808
tycho wrote:
D32 wrote:
aemathenge wrote:
Where would you draw the line at inter action with one who is gay?

You are a man and discover your male boss is gay: Resign. You are a woman and discover your female boss is a lesbian: Resign.

You now know that the subject of this thread is gay. Supposing he is your biggest customer, does the business relationship cease?

Supposing you are a man and the subject of this thread is the first to a scene where you are an accident victim, would you tell him not to assist you because he is gay?

Ponder that.


Although I do not have a boss, because I am self employed, should I be in a situation where I discover that my boss is a homosexual, I would not resign.

And if he is my client, I would not cut the business relationship.

That lifestyle is their choice, they will face the consequences if they do not change, despite knowing what is right.

In more developed nations, homosexuals tend to be more in number, they do not hide, and many make it obvious by the way they talk, walk, dress etc...

Because I met some on almost a daily basis, I ended up knowing them very well, so well that even if they needed some help with something that I could provide, they'd call me up and likewise, if there was something that they could help me with, I could call them up.

You cannot give them a cold back simply because of their sin, it is because of that open channel of sympathy that there can be hope of light reaching them that they may change.

Would I vote for such a one? No.

Quote:
Homosexuality is blatantly going contrary to human nature.

If they cannot figure out the role of their gender relative to the opposite, neither will I trust them to figure out other things for the society.


To say that you'd not vote for a homosexual is to say that you are aware of all political situations you will face and can face. But this is not true. Moreover, a conversation is a kind of vote.

Heterosexuality can also go against humanity especially when spirituality is forgotten or ignored. In fact, it is when sexuality has been taken for granted that people will start seeking 'other forms of experience'.

After all, cats, dogs, ducks. . . also exhibit heterosexuality.


I not voting for a homosexual = not trusting them for the same reason as quoted. Positions of leadership requires one to be analytical, logical, not irrational.

"Moreover, a conversation is a kind of vote" ?

"Heterosexuality can also go against humanity especially when spirituality is forgotten or ignored" - True

Hence choose the best candidate based on the strength of their moral backbone.
They tried to bury us, they didn't know we were seeds.
dossy7
#86 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 12:02:42 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 1,493
Location: Nairobi
hamburglar wrote:

Good for you, that is democracy at its best....You vote for who you want based on any criteria you like...A candidate being gay is not a game changer in my books.....We are definitely from different schools of thought and my decision to support the gay community might have something to do too with where I am currently based...I am in the US and I have a bunch of gay friends who are nothing but great people ]


Red light n u may call me crazy names and how i drink cheap liquor but ukweli utasemwa kama unapatiana boot ni shida yako n dont force us to accept ur views since u live in Obama land.
Kenya ni yetu sisi sote
tycho
#87 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 1:45:07 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
@D32, We do not vote for leaders, but we vote for dealers who will supply what one needs.

Leadership needs neither votes nor does it reside outside your self. This is what democracy demands.

To say that your vote is supposed to? install a leader who will make your life better, and enforce morality is to make the worst political mistake ever.

Voting implies that the political system is running on uncertain values. Other wise people would be ruled by fiat. But in a Democratic system, since there is no fiat as such, people have to negotiate values in the hope that they will meet their needs. Not any need, but political needs like positioning yourself to be an economic insider whose income will rise with inflation rates. That is, politics is about you doing things through others. The political analyst will tell you what a certain player is doing so that you can do something to, maximize your intended gains.

Supposing you have a shop whose clientele includes homosexuals and then one day your 'mpig' announces that his party policy is zero tolerance towards 'booty riders' ; would you jump up and down in happiness?

Wouldn't you try to find a way to reverse this policy?

What I am trying to say is that political transactions are made with the assumption that each player will manage the pay off the way he deems fit.

Now, your conversations with your homosexual clientele is political at least in the sense that you will end up paying your bills, or your contacts will increase and in a nutshell, you increase your resources.

By moving towards this political end, your conversation includes endorsement of many other relations and activities. Voting is endorsing.
D32
#88 Posted : Friday, October 12, 2012 9:44:28 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 808
@tycho

A leaders morality affects their capacity to make morally-correct decisions.

Morally correct decisions are not limited to the sexual context only, but also spans to other contexts such as matters of truth, honesty and integrity. It is immoral to steal (corruption) to lie etc... If one does not have a problem being immoral sexually, I do not know what can prevent them from being immoral in other contexts, hence I cannot trust them in positions of leadership.
They tried to bury us, they didn't know we were seeds.
tycho
#89 Posted : Saturday, October 13, 2012 11:50:45 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/1/2011
Posts: 8,804
Location: Nairobi
D32 wrote:
@tycho

A leaders morality affects their capacity to make morally-correct decisions.

Morally correct decisions are not limited to the sexual context only, but also spans to other contexts such as matters of truth, honesty and integrity. It is immoral to steal (corruption) to lie etc... If one does not have a problem being immoral sexually, I do not know what can prevent them from being immoral in other contexts, hence I cannot trust them in positions of leadership.


I have tried to understand what you are saying here but the more I think about it the more I get lost.

Anabaptists, Puritans, Roman Catholic church, Soviet socialists, Mao. . . Obama . . . I cannot see how a 'leader's' morality has had a noticeable and important effect in the course of politics and the body politic.

King Solomon, David. . . in the end I see the onus of morality lying entirely on the individual.

Politics seems to have very different aims.

Like now, would you say that there is a presidential candidate whose moral back bone is strong enough to make you give him/her your vote?

D32
#90 Posted : Sunday, October 14, 2012 5:35:36 AM
Rank: Member

Joined: 2/16/2012
Posts: 808
tycho wrote:
D32 wrote:
@tycho

A leaders morality affects their capacity to make morally-correct decisions.

Morally correct decisions are not limited to the sexual context only, but also spans to other contexts such as matters of truth, honesty and integrity. It is immoral to steal (corruption) to lie etc... If one does not have a problem being immoral sexually, I do not know what can prevent them from being immoral in other contexts, hence I cannot trust them in positions of leadership.


I have tried to understand what you are saying here but the more I think about it the more I get lost.

Anabaptists, Puritans, Roman Catholic church, Soviet socialists, Mao. . . Obama . . . I cannot see how a 'leader's' morality has had a noticeable and important effect in the course of politics and the body politic.

King Solomon, David. . . in the end I see the onus of morality lying entirely on the individual.

Politics seems to have very different aims.

Like now, would you say that there is a presidential candidate whose moral back bone is strong enough to make you give him/her your vote?



Would like mention that you mentioned something that is key in this discussion "in the end I see the onus of morality lying entirely on the individual", will comment on this in a moment, but first, a question that needs to be answered is "Do the moral values that leaders hold, affect the decisions that leaders make?"

The question comes from "I cannot see how a 'leader's' morality has had a noticeable and important effect in the course of politics and the body politic."

While in a position of leadership in society, it all boils down to the decisions that the leaders makes, good decisions will have positive results that the society can benefit from, while bad decisions will have negative results, of which the society can suffer from.

So, how does one's morality affects their decision making? Homosexuals compromise morals pertaining to sex - with pride. Now, supposing that the same is in a position of leadership, and then a situation occurs where the leader has an opportunity to gain from a corrupt deal - at the cost of the society, such as, the societies funds being depleted without accountability. Since a homosexual already compromised morals pertaining to sex - with pride, can anything stop such a one from compromising other morals such as to lie and steal? - Should the individual decide to pursue that course?

If the leader decides to pursue that course, the society will be at a loss - Hence the leaders moral values, affecting the leaders decisions, affecting the society.

This is not to say that heterosexuals do not break morals such as to lie and steal, rather, this is to say that if there is an array of candidates requesting for your vote, the homosexual has by their lifestyle, declared that morals do not guide his or her decision making - "By their fruits, ye shall know them".

"Like now, would you say that there is a presidential candidate whose moral back bone is strong enough to make you give him/her your vote?"

Even if they are all heterosexuals, the same applies to them as above, "By their fruits, ye shall know them". Heterosexuals are also capable of breaking morals, and at the end of the day, it is the voters personal responsibility to look at their "fruits" and make a judgement on who best deserves their vote, if any.

What I can say is that I do not know enough about them to be able to make that call. Those who have been been keeping up with the candidates over the years are at a better position to answer. I came back not long ago, had been out the country since childhood (with exception of visitations), and had not been keeping up with the loop.

I hope that there are candidates with moral back-bones that are worth the nations vote.

Regarding "in the end I see the onus of morality lying entirely on the individual".

Herein is the key to the matter.

Others view morality as absolute (like I do), while others view it as relative (like you do).

Morals are principles defining right from wrong.

When morality is absolute, what is right and what is wrong is the same to all humans. When morality is relative, what is wrong and what is right depends on the individual, so, what is considered right by one person, can be considered as wrong by another, and have both be correct, because morality is being considered as relative.

The questions that needs to be answered are:

- Are morals relative or are they absolute?

- And if morals are absolute, who defines them?



Will have to leave it there for now.

Answering the questions above requires a long write-up, which is not possible right now due to time constraints, but will be working on it whenever I get the opportunity, till it's complete, which may or may not be soon.
They tried to bury us, they didn't know we were seeds.
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