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Nyong-nyong sacks all striking doctors.
McReggae
#61 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 9:11:51 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
kamundu wrote:
McReggae wrote:
nakujua wrote:
kamundu wrote:
All they are asking is that they are compensated for working after learning hours, otherwise KNH should hire their own doctors to work after classes etc. Those other residency programs have no strings attached. It is a symbiotic relationship Eg aga khan gets to hire committed doctors who on the other hand use the experience to get specialist training. Once their contract is over, they part ways.

I rest my case


I find it odd when comparing aga khan to KNH


....he wants Aga Khan and KNH to be at par!!!!



And why not? Si you want better healthcare?


...it's a choice the doctor makes ya?....Aga khan or KNH!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
kamundu
#62 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 9:57:21 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/9/2011
Posts: 786
Location: Mashinani
McReggae wrote:
kamundu wrote:
McReggae wrote:
nakujua wrote:
kamundu wrote:
All they are asking is that they are compensated for working after learning hours, otherwise KNH should hire their own doctors to work after classes etc. Those other residency programs have no strings attached. It is a symbiotic relationship Eg aga khan gets to hire committed doctors who on the other hand use the experience to get specialist training. Once their contract is over, they part ways.

I rest my case


I find it odd when comparing aga khan to KNH


....he wants Aga Khan and KNH to be at par!!!!



And why not? Si you want better healthcare?


...it's a choice the doctor makes ya?....Aga khan or KNH!!!!


Well, judging by the comments here, some of you guys would be right at home at mAfya house.Shame on you
Peace in our Homeland.
muganda
#63 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 10:35:33 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
Life is full of complexity.

In this case for example, the doctors are not keen to let on that Registrars are students at the behest of University of Nairobi for a subsidized tution fee [as per UON's claim].

For their training, the University needs to find a recognized place for them to practice on patients. Kenyatta grants UON this option and bears the risk. Often students from overseas, unable to work on real patients, fly to Kenya at their own expense to immerse themselves in diesease at Kenyatta.

Then there's the issue of doctors who despite being posted by Government all over the country, only show up 1/2 days a week to serve the desperate Kenyans in the rural areas as they pursue private locums.

And lastly, only 15-20% of doctors master their craft meaning a full 30% would be incompetent. But we all know of the fraternity that protects their dear classmates/colleagues at the expense of ignorant Kenyans.



So in my view, everyone deserves better, least of all the MPs in the August house.
alma
#64 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 10:50:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
@Kamundu, still waiting on the salary numbers. Stop telling us WHO numbers. We all know that there are only 3 international footballers in Kenya while Brazil has 1billion.

How much are you being paid and how much do you want to be paid?

The tax payer who you are refusing to treat in your strike is the one footing your bill.

So please, save us the melodrama and tell us how much.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
McReggae
#65 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 11:09:05 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
@Kamundu, still waiting on the salary numbers. Stop telling us WHO numbers. We all know that there are only 3 international footballers in Kenya while Brazil has 1billion.

How much are you being paid and how much do you want to be paid?

The tax payer who you are refusing to treat in your strike is the one footing your bill.

So please, save us the melodrama and tell us how much.


Hiyo hatasema, this is the place where you do your masters for free and still get a salary, some of us have to take a loan to pursue even a PGD!!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
kamundu
#66 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 11:42:41 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/9/2011
Posts: 786
Location: Mashinani
alma wrote:
@Kamundu, still waiting on the salary numbers. Stop telling us WHO numbers. We all know that there are only 3 international footballers in Kenya while Brazil has 1billion.

How much are you being paid and how much do you want to be paid?

The tax payer who you are refusing to treat in your strike is the one footing your bill.

So please, save us the melodrama and tell us how much.


@alma. Fyi, i ont even work for Gok/ or Knh. Im in private practice.

With that said, here are the numbers

Registrars ( the majority) Who work 70hrs a week in Knh= 0shs

What used to happen was that gava used to sponsor doctors to Uon after 5yrs or so in service. Then came corruption and misappropriation of funds. Soon doctors realised that to rise in the job group scales, the sama gava that was refusing to let the go back to school plus study leave etc, wanted one to have a masters. So up until last year, most guys were advised by afya house that they had to resign if they wanted to pursue postgraduate education coz there was no money. And thats what happened. Bteween 2003 and 2011, many doctors were forced to quit gava and pursue masomo. To make ends meet, they treat you and you kids at the private hosis you all like part time.

Then after you maliza your masomo, the same gava tells you that for you to be recognized as a specialist, you have to work for them for free for 2years. mind you , they didnt pay for your tuition. So all in all you do 4years plus a further 2years at KNH for free! Then the gava finally realise they need you, so they give you a job and post you to Wajir, where there is no theatre, Xray equipment etc. So as a newly qualified surgeon, you really feel frustrated
Nowyou are well into your 30s. When you ask for someone to look into your
remuneration, they say " well its a calling, so live with it". So, to survive, you decide to lump all your cases into 2 or three days a week. Then do some locum in Nairobi to pay the rent.

You know get my drift?
Peace in our Homeland.
McReggae
#67 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 11:46:49 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
@kamundu, that is a plain lie!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
kangi
#68 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 3:59:57 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 526
muganda wrote:
Life is full of complexity.

In this case for example, the doctors are not keen to let on that Registrars are students at the behest of University of Nairobi for a subsidized tution fee [as per UON's claim].



@Kamundu, please tell whether or not the fee is subsidised in six figures. So to be at parity with gava, the students need to pay the full fee then claim the stipend ur talking about.
Accept no one's definition of your life; define your life.
kangi
#69 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 4:04:50 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 526
muganda wrote:
Life is full of complexity.

For their training, the University needs to find a recognized place for them to practice on patients. Kenyatta grants UON this option and bears the risk. Often students from overseas, unable to work on real patients, fly to Kenya at their own expense to immerse themselves in disease at Kenyatta.



Indeed the hospital has been sued on several occasions for such negligence, and the registrars go scot free and KNH has to compensate the victims.
Need we say more?
Accept no one's definition of your life; define your life.
murchr
#70 Posted : Friday, September 07, 2012 5:29:57 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
kamundu wrote:
alma wrote:
@Kamundu, still waiting on the salary numbers. Stop telling us WHO numbers. We all know that there are only 3 international footballers in Kenya while Brazil has 1billion.

How much are you being paid and how much do you want to be paid?

The tax payer who you are refusing to treat in your strike is the one footing your bill.

So please, save us the melodrama and tell us how much.


@alma. Fyi, i ont even work for Gok/ or Knh. Im in private practice.

With that said, here are the numbers

Registrars ( the majority) Who work 70hrs a week in Knh= 0shs

What used to happen was that gava used to sponsor doctors to Uon after 5yrs or so in service. Then came corruption and misappropriation of funds. Soon doctors realised that to rise in the job group scales, the sama gava that was refusing to let the go back to school plus study leave etc, wanted one to have a masters. So up until last year, most guys were advised by afya house that they had to resign if they wanted to pursue postgraduate education coz there was no money. And thats what happened. Bteween 2003 and 2011, many doctors were forced to quit gava and pursue masomo. To make ends meet, they treat you and you kids at the private hosis you all like part time.

Then after you maliza your masomo, the same gava tells you that for you to be recognized as a specialist, you have to work for them for free for 2years. mind you , they didnt pay for your tuition. So all in all you do 4years plus a further 2years at KNH for free! Then the gava finally realise they need you, so they give you a job and post you to Wajir, where there is no theatre, Xray equipment etc. So as a newly qualified surgeon, you really feel frustrated
Nowyou are well into your 30s. When you ask for someone to look into your
remuneration, they say " well its a calling, so live with it". So, to survive, you decide to lump all your cases into 2 or three days a week. Then do some locum in Nairobi to pay the rent.

You know get my drift?


You say you don't work for KNH but private practice, did you go thru UON of KU med sch? If yes, how long have you served as a doc in these hosp?

On the red....did they subsidize your education costs? I think GOK should do away with the subsidizing of education and let all these people take up loans to pay for it. In the US the average med student graduates with a loan of over $100k, which he has to pay with the peanuts that they get when they start work. That's why many never leave the hosp that they were training in. eg if u went to a med sch with a hosp chances are ur stuck there for the longest and they still take up loans to specialize in whatever.

I think Docs should stop thinking that they should be treated any better than the lawyers who work at the AG's office. If its about brains, they all sat for KCSE and chances are they all got A's.
"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Chaimasala
#71 Posted : Sunday, September 09, 2012 3:56:43 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/5/2012
Posts: 5
murchr wrote:
kamundu wrote:
alma wrote:
@Kamundu, still waiting on the salary numbers. Stop telling us WHO numbers. We all know that there are only 3 international footballers in Kenya while Brazil has 1billion.

How much are you being paid and how much do you want to be paid?

The tax payer who you are refusing to treat in your strike is the one footing your bill.

So please, save us the melodrama and tell us how much.


@alma. Fyi, i ont even work for Gok/ or Knh. Im in private practice.

With that said, here are the numbers

Registrars ( the majority) Who work 70hrs a week in Knh= 0shs

What used to happen was that gava used to sponsor doctors to Uon after 5yrs or so in service. Then came corruption and misappropriation of funds. Soon doctors realised that to rise in the job group scales, the sama gava that was refusing to let the go back to school plus study leave etc, wanted one to have a masters. So up until last year, most guys were advised by afya house that they had to resign if they wanted to pursue postgraduate education coz there was no money. And thats what happened. Bteween 2003 and 2011, many doctors were forced to quit gava and pursue masomo. To make ends meet, they treat you and you kids at the private hosis you all like part time.

Then after you maliza your masomo, the same gava tells you that for you to be recognized as a specialist, you have to work for them for free for 2years. mind you , they didnt pay for your tuition. So all in all you do 4years plus a further 2years at KNH for free! Then the gava finally realise they need you, so they give you a job and post you to Wajir, where there is no theatre, Xray equipment etc. So as a newly qualified surgeon, you really feel frustrated
Nowyou are well into your 30s. When you ask for someone to look into your
remuneration, they say " well its a calling, so live with it". So, to survive, you decide to lump all your cases into 2 or three days a week. Then do some locum in Nairobi to pay the rent.

You know get my drift?


You say you don't work for KNH but private practice, did you go thru UON of KU med sch? If yes, how long have you served as a doc in these hosp?

On the red....did they subsidize your education costs? I think GOK should do away with the subsidizing of education and let all these people take up loans to pay for it. In the US the average med student graduates with a loan of over $100k, which he has to pay with the peanuts that they get when they start work. That's why many never leave the hosp that they were training in. eg if u went to a med sch with a hosp chances are ur stuck there for the longest and they still take up loans to specialize in whatever.

I think Docs should stop thinking that they should be treated any better than the lawyers who work at the AG's office. If its about brains, they all sat for KCSE and chances are they all got A's.


Actually, specialty training in developed countries, including the US is paid. Their debt comes from medical school.

Privately sponsored medical training is very rare in the US and other developed countries. In the US, On the rare occasion one finds it the programs specify one must prove to have a source of funds that will pay you a salary that is equivalent to others in the same training
thus you will only find people from countries like Saudi Arabia where the government has made it a priority to train specialist docs as "privately sponsored".

There are a few private sponsored training sites in Europe but these are observerships, meaning look but don't touch. The programs are strictly for foreigners with the understanding you will go home after training. Though it sounds like this is the model some wazuan's would like for Kenya because these guys who go to Europe pay fees, learn but do not work. But why I said even in my earlier post that this is going backwards is imagine having your appendix removed by a guy who has watched it 100 times vs a guy who has assisted someone and been observerved and corrected as he is doing it. Which doc would you choose?





murchr
#72 Posted : Sunday, September 09, 2012 5:10:58 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 2/26/2012
Posts: 15,980
@Chaimasala I dont know which US your talking about but in the US the Med students have a really huge loan tag attached on them, ofcourse, there are the lucky ones who got scholarships but the majority pay thru their noses either to the govt, state or sch.

However, they have a loan forgiveness program where If you’re willing to practice in a critical needs area of the country that’s presently underserved by health professionals, it is quite possible the will forgive your medical school loan.

"There are only two emotions in the market, hope & fear. The problem is you hope when you should fear & fear when you should hope: - Jesse Livermore
.
Chaimasala
#73 Posted : Sunday, September 09, 2012 5:45:16 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/5/2012
Posts: 5
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Chaimasala
#74 Posted : Sunday, September 09, 2012 5:54:02 PM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 9/5/2012
Posts: 5
Chaimasala wrote:
murchr wrote:
@Chaimasala I dont know which US your talking about but in the US the Med students have a really huge loan tag attached on them, ofcourse, there are the lucky ones who got scholarships but the majority pay thru their noses either to the govt, state or sch.

However, they have a loan forgiveness program where If you’re willing to practice in a critical needs area of the country that’s presently underserved by health professionals, it is quite possible the will forgive your medical school loan.


I see where you misunderstood me. Let me clarify. The loans they take are to cover medical school, what we would call undergraduate medical training.

Specialty training ( what we call masters and they call residency) is paid and that's the issue at hand, isn't it? It's the reason the docs are going on strike.

kamundu
#75 Posted : Sunday, September 09, 2012 7:05:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/9/2011
Posts: 786
Location: Mashinani
I think there is a misunderstanding here. When one goes through med school for the first time, you get an undergraduate degree just like any other person. Thats what happens in most commonwealth countries, and some parts of europe. In Kenya you get admitted right from high school by JAB, and get funding from HELB just like anyone else. In the US however, you must first do a basic undergraduate degree also known as premed or predental eg in Biochemistry before joining medical or dental school. hence to them, a medical/dental degree is a postgraduate program. Hence, the US and Commonwealth method of training are different.

When you go for specialist training, you do a postgraduate degree also known as a masters. In the US, they call it a residency and in the UK they call it a fellowship. A person undergoing specialist training is called a resident in the US or a registrar in the Commonweath. This person is attached to a hospital dept and works there fulltime. This is usually a paid position worldwide. These guys practically run KNH and majority of them are not govt employees, nor does the govt pay their school fees. These are the guys on strike.

Peace in our Homeland.
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