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Enact the Terrorism Bill !
Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/17/2008 Posts: 1,234
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What became of this Bill? I know it had some contentious provisions but isnt it time that MPigs revived it? The enactment of such law now, with appropriate amendments to protect civil rights, should not be too contentious as the new Constitution has enough protections for accused persons. The idea behind the Bill is the enactment of law providing for offences that specifically relate to terrorism, aspects of which may not be appropriately covered in the existing law providing for such offences as murder.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/17/2008 Posts: 1,234
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I cannot find a copy of the last draft of the Bill online but have seen this as part of the reasons why Parliament declined to debate the Bill in 2006: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 Anti-terrorism bill stalled in Kenya parliament Joe Shaulis at 1:07 PM ET [JURIST] A committee of the Kenyan National Assembly [official website] has shelved the latest version of a long-pending anti-terrorism bill [JURIST report], saying it will not be debated until the United States accepts responsibility for attacks on American interests in Kenya [JURIST news archive]. MP Amina Abdala, who on Monday announced the position of the Committee on Administration of Justice and Legal Affairs, said the bill violates rights contained in the Kenyan Constitution [text, PDF]. Provisions in the bill require the government to share intelligence with foreign nations and allow it to label individuals and groups as terrorists. Abdala said the US should compensate Kenya for losses suffered in terrorist attacks - apparently a reference to the car bombings of the US Embassy in Nairobi in 1998 [US State Dept. backgrounder], which killed more than 200 people, and of an Israeli-owned hotel in Mombasa in 2002 [CNN report], which killed 15. Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for both attacks. A version of the bill [text, PDF] was first proposed in 2003. Human rights groups, including the Kenyan Human Rights Commission [advocacy website] and Amnesty International [press release], have also criticized the bill [EAS report]. From Nairobi, the East African Standard has more. PANA has additional coverage. http://jurist.org/paperc...ill-stalled-in-kenya.php
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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First, just for record: I'm totally against terrorism. No true muslim supports it. Now, the new anti-terrorism bill by Kenya Gova must be seen in context of what has happened in other countries, the US. I appreciate the efforts the government has done to restore some Security in our country; more security & patrols in the border. But most of the arrested have been released without charge after many days in custody. These arrests have been seen as " ...targeting the Muslims for harassment and illegal arrests and detention." I'm going to give you a climpse of the magnitude of this bill if adopted: 1. On the legislative FrontThe U.S. congress passed the Patriot Act in October 2001 whose Provisions included new government powers to detain foreign nationals suspected of involvement in "terrorism" or "any other activity that endangers the national security of the United States" for 7 days without charge. 2. In November 2001, President Bush Signed a military order allowing for Non-U.S. citizens suspected of involvement in "international terrorism" to be tried by special military commissions which would expressly bypass the normal rules of evidence under the order, the commissions could operate in secret and pass death sentences which could not be appealed to a higher Court. 3. Concern at the levels of official secrecy surrounding the detentionsGrave concerns at the reports on the plight of these detainees. - detainees denied access to legal Counsel
- detainees denied access to relatives,
- that some Muslim detainees suffered physical and verbal abuse from guards or other inmates,
- cruel conditions of confinement including prolonged solitary confinement,
- inadequate exercise and the wearing of shackles during non-contact visits.
- Blanket denial of bail4. Presumption of Guilt- indefinite detention of foreign nationals on the basis of mere suspicion of involvement in terrorism, - violated the principle of non-discrimination and international fair trial standards. 5. Unfair treatment of the detainees says a lot about the level of human rights abuse of the detainees in truth and reality. 6. The U.S. Government and its allies maintain that the war on terror is not a war on certain faith or on its followers.But is this true? The fact that most of the victims of this war on terror are mostly those belonging to some faith, be they individuals, institutions or organizations have reduced the said statement to a mere rhetoric. Quote:It remains to be seen whether those involved in the war on terror can overcome their suspicion or mistrust of Muslims and turn them into Partners in the war on terror.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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AlphDoti wrote:First, just for record: I'm totally against terrorism. No true muslim supports it. Now, the new anti-terrorism bill by Kenya Gova must be seen in context of what has happened in other countries, the US. I appreciate the efforts the government has done to restore some Security in our country; more security & patrols in the border. But most of the arrested have been released without charge after many days in custody. These arrests have been seen as " ...targeting the Muslims for harassment and illegal arrests and detention." I'm going to give you a climpse of the magnitude of this bill if adopted: 1. On the legislative FrontThe U.S. congress passed the Patriot Act in October 2001 whose Provisions included new government powers to detain foreign nationals suspected of involvement in "terrorism" or "any other activity that endangers the national security of the United States" for 7 days without charge. 2. In November 2001, President Bush Signed a military order allowing for Non-U.S. citizens suspected of involvement in "international terrorism" to be tried by special military commissions which would expressly bypass the normal rules of evidence under the order, the commissions could operate in secret and pass death sentences which could not be appealed to a higher Court. 3. Concern at the levels of official secrecy surrounding the detentionsGrave concerns at the reports on the plight of these detainees. - detainees denied access to legal Counsel
- detainees denied access to relatives,
- that some Muslim detainees suffered physical and verbal abuse from guards or other inmates,
- cruel conditions of confinement including prolonged solitary confinement,
- inadequate exercise and the wearing of shackles during non-contact visits.
- Blanket denial of bail4. Presumption of Guilt- indefinite detention of foreign nationals on the basis of mere suspicion of involvement in terrorism, - violated the principle of non-discrimination and international fair trial standards. 5. Unfair treatment of the detainees says a lot about the level of human rights abuse of the detainees in truth and reality. 6. The U.S. Government and its allies maintain that the war on terror is not a war on certain faith or on its followers.But is this true? The fact that most of the victims of this war on terror are mostly those belonging to some faith, be they individuals, institutions or organizations have reduced the said statement to a mere rhetoric. Quote:It remains to be seen whether those involved in the war on terror can overcome their suspicion or mistrust of Muslims and turn them into Partners in the war on terror. @Alph, I agree with your observations on the above issue lakini where do you put the rights of persons who are killed, maimed and left destitute by the sheer magnitude of the death and destruction that results from terrorist activities? Where do you place the rights and justice to the victims of say Garissa church attacks? Kampala bombings? 2. Why do we care so much more about suspects than about victims? The presumption that the bill be looked at in the context of USA experience is a fallacy that only diverts our attention from the real focus. Terrorism is no ordinary crime and as such its attention calls for extra ordinary measures. 3. How do you get justice to the families left destitute due terrorist activities? These are some issues that are addressed in the bill, i.e compensation, confiscation of assets of terrorist sympathisers, financiers etc. For the war on terror to succeed it ought to be fought from all angles, directions, facets. From sympathisers, recruiters, financiers, activists etc. 4. What you should be suggesting is that measures be put in place so that enforcement agencies are not abusive of the prerogative to enforce extraordinary measures. Like we could suggest that suspects who are proven innocent be compensated in the same way victims of terrorism are compensated.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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@Rahatupu I agree that we have to fight it in all possible ways, but not through:
- Bypassing the normal rules of evidence
- Officially making secret about detentions
- Presumption of Guilt
- Abuse of Human rights of the detainees
If one of us has been put in prison and there is no evidence that we have seen, we have to support him or her.
We cannot say he must have done something wrong, because then we can go to sleep, eat our own food, and enjoy ourselves and forget that one of us.
No we have to say they must be innocent, because the rule even in the Western world, is that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
So if our own is taken from home or even from street, and they are held for suspicion of anything, we must feel like our finger has been cut off. Like someone has stepped on our chest, like someone snatched our son or our daughter.
And we will be at police station, we will be calling, we will be asking, we will be crying and begging. The least we can do is get a lawyer.
But because it is not our son. Because it is not our daughter. And we do not have to see them physically, we say nothing.
Oh Kenyans, are people guilty just because they belong to certain faith?
And what will you wait? Will you wait until a law is put in place, which allows the gova to wake you up one morning with a knock through your door. And you are pulled out of your house and separately from your wife and children. And you are put inside a prison.
And will you wait until thousands of you. And it can happen anytime. And you say, not to me!
It is happening right in front of you.
But because it is only happening one by one by one and you go to work in the morning and you have to take care of your own business, mind your business. That Kenyan, may God help him.
It can be your son, it can be your daughter, grand son, it can be you.
I say we have to look for better ways of fighting terrorism. Not just supporting the West. We cannot leave us to be oppressed by other nations.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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AlphDoti wrote:@Rahatupu I agree that we have to fight it in all possible ways, but not through:
- Bypassing the normal rules of evidence
- Officially making secret about detentions
- Presumption of Guilt
- Abuse of Human rights of the detainees
If one of us has been put in prison and there is no evidence that we have seen, we have to support him or her.
We cannot say he must have done something wrong, because then we can go to sleep, eat our own food, and enjoy ourselves and forget that one of us.
No we have to say they must be innocent, because the rule even in the Western world, is that a person is innocent until proven guilty.
So if our own is taken from home or even from street, and they are held for suspicion of anything, we must feel like our finger has been cut off. Like someone has stepped on our chest, like someone snatched our son or our daughter.
And we will be at police station, we will be calling, we will be asking, we will be crying and begging. The least we can do is get a lawyer.
But because it is not our son. Because it is not our daughter. And we do not have to see them physically, we say nothing.
Oh Kenyans, are people guilty just because they belong to certain faith?
And what will you wait? Will you wait until a law is put in place, which allows the gova to wake you up one morning with a knock through your door. And you are pulled out of your house and separately from your wife and children. And you are put inside a prison.
And will you wait until thousands of you. And it can happen anytime. And you say, not to me!
It is happening right in front of you.
But because it is only happening one by one by one and you go to work in the morning and you have to take care of your own business, mind your business. That Kenyan, may God help him.
It can be your son, it can be your daughter, grand son, it can be you.
I say we have to look for better ways of fighting terrorism. Not just supporting the West. We cannot leave us to be oppressed by other nations. . Alpha... I agree in principle with your thoughts and concerns. But I beg you offer solutions as well. Recall the days Mungiki reigned terror on villagers in Murang'a and central Kenya? Did every other Kikuyu say we are being targeted? No. Why don't these idiots bomb countries where the so called rights are non existent? Like Ethiopia, Ug? There is real fear that once caught their lives will never be the same. This is what Michuki did (instill fear) among Mungiki idiots. This is what Ug and Ethiopia are feared. Why not take the other extreme Alpadoti? Assume that the Police/law enforcement officers have in their hands the real terrorist (caught in the act/or confessed) would you still advocate for his "rights"? Remember as well that the US would never have had a clue as to where Osama (RIP) was without Quantanamo (sic). Why don't terrorists succeed or thrive in Saudi Arabia? Do they have rights there? Solution: Part of it is in the Bill, these guys have to know that there are serious consequences in identifying with terrorists. Fear must instilled in them. There can be serious checks and balances to the Bill once it becomes an Act (involve the judiciary). Terrorism is an extreme criminality that calls for extreme measures. If we really love this country we need to stand to be counted, to be known whether we are with the terrorists or against them. I rest my case.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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“I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. ..... Negotiations cannot convince al-Qaeda’s leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism—it is a recognition of history, the imperfections of man, and the limits of reason.” President Barrack Obama.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Rahatupu wrote: “I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. ..... Negotiations cannot convince al-Qaeda’s leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism—it is a recognition of history, the imperfections of man, and the limits of reason.” President Barrack Obama. I have noticed that you choose not to comment when you're asked to tell us what you would say if these US guys catches you in " a victim of mistaken Identity"
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Rank: Chief Joined: 8/24/2009 Posts: 5,909 Location: Nairobi
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@Mpenzi, ebu enlighten me...the Iranians were released on cash bail. These are terrorist suspects (sio mwizi wa kuku), is this allowed according to Kenyan law?
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/3/2012 Posts: 1,317
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Since passing of Patriot Act, there has been no terror attacks on US soil, and US has recorded tremendous gains in war on terror.
In Kenya Anti-Terrorism Bill will not see light of day coz Muslims & civil society are more concerned about the rights of villains and not victims. Nowhere in the world (hata Uganda) would a terror suspect be released on bail. But this is Kenya
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/4/2009 Posts: 1,982 Location: matano manne
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AlphDoti wrote:Rahatupu wrote: “I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. ..... Negotiations cannot convince al-Qaeda’s leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism—it is a recognition of history, the imperfections of man, and the limits of reason.” President Barrack Obama. I have noticed that you choose not to comment when you're asked to tell us what you would say if these US guys catches you in " a victim of mistaken Identity" . @Alphdoti, I asked you to offer solutions and to examine the other extreme as well, i.e: imagine real terrorist caught just in the act and tell me whether you'd advocate that they be pampered with "rights" blablabla. This fight requires real commitment of and use of real force and any means necessary hapana kuregarega. You are either with them or against them period.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/20/2008 Posts: 6,275 Location: Kenya
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Rahatupu wrote:AlphDoti wrote:Rahatupu wrote: “I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. ..... Negotiations cannot convince al-Qaeda’s leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism—it is a recognition of history, the imperfections of man, and the limits of reason.” President Barrack Obama. I have noticed that you choose not to comment when you're asked to tell us what you would say if these US guys catches you in " a victim of mistaken Identity" . @Alphdoti, I asked you to offer solutions and to examine the other extreme as well, i.e: imagine real terrorist caught just in the act and tell me whether you'd advocate that they be pampered with "rights" blablabla. This fight requires real commitment of and use of real force and any means necessary hapana kuregarega. You are either with them or against them period. As far as terrorism is concerned, this is haram. It's very clear in Quran 5:32; you cannot kill innocent human being. So what should we do about these people who do that? The law says they should be punished, they are criminals and the aim is to find them and kill them as criminals. Islam says: Capital Punishment is solution. But you know what? The same activists say: "Oh no! This is Barbaric!" But we do not accuse people without evidence. And certainly we do no indict a country because someone is living there whom someone else feels he is indicted.
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