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Impact of 30% rental income tax on housing development in Kenya
alma
#91 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 12:31:03 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
@Bachuma I will leave the issue of central bank rates to the experts in that area.

You have to understand that its true that Kenyans behave very strangely. How many threads do you see here on wazua...I have 300k where can I buy a plot?

It's not to develop but to just hoard until a time they think it will go up.

The laws of demand and supply are simple. With everyone hoarding, there is no supply. So prices keep going up with no economic fundamentals backing them.

So since the gov't doesn't have the balls to deal with the supply, they've decided to go demand side. Get those taxes owed.

So this leads to the questions on this very post. Is it profitable anymore to get into rental property business. If it isn't then they seek other avenues of investing their incomes.

Thus reducing demand for these hyper priced "semi homes" as most are just as someone posted here...mabati houses.

The reason why the gov't rates may not go down is simply because the gov't doesn't collect what is owed. It has to continue borrowing to build you roads, yet you have refused to pay your taxes. So it goes to borrow again to build you another Thika Road.

So gov't rates stay up to pay off these debts.

If the gov't continues getting more of everyone's share with effective tax collection, then there is less need to borrow leading to less need to keep its rates high.

It's simple and basic economics. It is good for the country but bad for the fake rich guys.

I say fake rich guys because you can't talk of capital gains until you actually sell the asset.

Lets be very honest. How many Kenyans do you know who would part with their houses. I will never sell my mugunda is the rallying call in Kenya.

Leading to a lot of paper millionaires.

Can anyone spell BUBBLE?
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
Bachuma Gate
#92 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 12:36:04 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
Alma - Not true unless you expound.

Check the classified. Land is being sold everywhere. You can buy anytime you want. From Karen to Kamulu. Meru to Kisumu. From 140m to 100,000.00 in isinya. Willing seller willing buyer. Kajiado for example, allot of this land belongs to Masais from their ancestors so do we force them to sell if one is not willing. And what about land in your shags. Just after Runda. The land belongs to various kikuyu families, why tax them for their ancestral land.

Unless you are talking of allocated land which in the first place should allows revert to gova for re allocation and not for sale if the initial intended use was not achieved.

We really need to put serious thinking into these issues.

DOH
Bachuma Gate
#93 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 12:40:00 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
I agree with you on Govt borrowing and relationship with collection of taxes.
DOH
alma
#94 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 12:49:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
@Bachuma

I am all for capitalism but I'm thinking that its about time we reigned in hoarding in the name of property investment.

I know this has happened to you.

Quote:
Hi alma there is a group we are setting up to buy 2 acres in xxx. If we buy it together we can buy at xxx.

We can the resell it as 40x80 40x40, 20x20 plots for xxx money.


You see that's the nature of property investment in Kenya. No one wants to produce anything in these tuplots. Worse, they borrow to finance non-productive economic activities.

Banks won't finance a business, they will finance a plot that has no economic value.

Exactly how long do you think this kind of economy will last?

I'm one of the few guys who has said I will wait for my parents to die then I can inherit their land. But you won't catch me buying a kaplot. I'd rather buy Access Kenya in the hope that Google will buy it.

Even better go buy in other countries. Its very easy to buy a good home in the US, Canada and UK at cheaper rates than in Kenya. At least there you are assured of a KPLC that works.

But property in Kenya is inflated and there is no denying that. Taxing the sector is the first step to brining a semblance of honesty in the industry.

Now please tax capital gains and hoarders.

Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
kangi
#95 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 1:01:57 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 526
Bachuma Gate wrote:


The land belongs to various kikuyu families, why tax them for their ancestral land.

Unless you are talking of allocated land which in the first place should allows revert to gova for re allocation and not for sale if the initial intended use was not achieved.

We really need to put serious thinking into these issues.



Land as a factor of production directly contributes to tax revenue generation. Idle land should be taxed as part of the govas opportunity cost. Holding land that would otherwise be housing a factory or coffee bushes for both employment and forex, is a serious drawback, then we expect the govt to build hospitals and roads.Hiyo pesa itatoka wapi?

Remember unemployment is when any of the factors of production including capital lies idle.
Accept no one's definition of your life; define your life.
bird_man
#96 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 1:46:48 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/2/2006
Posts: 1,206
Location: Nairobi
Just to be clear, is the 30% on gross rental income or net rental income?What would stop me as a landlord from receiving rent through my LTD company then charge all crazy expenses onto the income till net rental income is a small amount?On which then the 30% can be applied.
Formally employed people often live their employers' dream & forget about their own.
StatMeister
#97 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 3:06:21 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/23/2010
Posts: 868
Location: La Islas Galápagos
bird_man wrote:
Just to be clear, is the 30% on gross rental income or net rental income?What would stop me as a landlord from receiving rent through my LTD company then charge all crazy expenses onto the income till net rental income is a small amount?On which then the 30% can be applied.


You'd have to pay corporation tax, then income tax on whatever little remains.
A bad day fishing is better than a good day at work
Wendz
#98 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 3:06:39 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
kangi wrote:
Bachuma Gate wrote:


The land belongs to various kikuyu families, why tax them for their ancestral land.

Unless you are talking of allocated land which in the first place should allows revert to gova for re allocation and not for sale if the initial intended use was not achieved.

We really need to put serious thinking into these issues.



Land as a factor of production directly contributes to tax revenue generation. Idle land should be taxed as part of the govas opportunity cost. Holding land that would otherwise be housing a factory or coffee bushes for both employment and forex, is a serious drawback, then we expect the govt to build hospitals and roads.Hiyo pesa itatoka wapi?

Remember unemployment is when any of the factors of production including capital lies idle.


Let's start with defining "development". What constitutes development in terms of land? Assuming I put up a small mabati structure or a "septic" tank, and throw in some few planted trees or fruits or give the neighbor to cultivate sukumas, would i still be taxed? if i will not, what will stop me from holding land that i wont invest much in for speculation? I dont foresee selling my land now just because of taxation.... there's still a way round this development...... And with this, it is not evading tax, its avoiding tax, which is not illegal.
sanity
#99 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 3:18:07 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 1/24/2011
Posts: 407
Location: Nairobi,Kenya
A tax on rental property is fine..however at 30%?? thats way too high.in other words for every 100bob 1 get from my shackle the gava takes 30%??thats pure theft! when will I ever recover the capital I invested ? thats a great way of killing investment in real estate..with all the hulla ballo of vision 2030 yet you slap a tax of 30% on rentals? Nkt
Hope is not a strategy
Chaka
#100 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 3:28:09 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 2/16/2007
Posts: 2,114
I believe there was a time KRA used to charge VAT for orbituary announcements...How about that?
Marty
#101 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 3:53:44 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 3/31/2008
Posts: 761
Location: Nairobi
Wendz wrote:
kangi wrote:
Bachuma Gate wrote:


The land belongs to various kikuyu families, why tax them for their ancestral land.

Unless you are talking of allocated land which in the first place should allows revert to gova for re allocation and not for sale if the initial intended use was not achieved.

We really need to put serious thinking into these issues.



Land as a factor of production directly contributes to tax revenue generation. Idle land should be taxed as part of the govas opportunity cost. Holding land that would otherwise be housing a factory or coffee bushes for both employment and forex, is a serious drawback, then we expect the govt to build hospitals and roads.Hiyo pesa itatoka wapi?

Remember unemployment is when any of the factors of production including capital lies idle.


Let's start with defining "development". What constitutes development in terms of land? Assuming I put up a small mabati structure or a "septic" tank, and throw in some few planted trees or fruits or give the neighbor to cultivate sukumas, would i still be taxed? if i will not, what will stop me from holding land that i wont invest much in for speculation? I dont foresee selling my land now just because of taxation.... there's still a way round this development...... And with this, it is not evading tax, its avoiding tax, which is not illegal.


Interesting question. Development of the land would actually start with subdivision. If you check page of the mutation (for cap 300 land) it talks of development plan. However, I also think doing minimal stuff like planting trees is deveoping the land. I noted brookside have planted blue gums in their land as part of their 'development' of their expansive land along the eastern by-pass.

In other words, you may not necessarily even need to put up a structure to be deemed to develop the land....

On a more serious note..agricultural land needs to utilized for the same not to be deemed idle.
The land which is residential, then probably the expectation is the same that it is utilized for those purposes to be deemed developed. Whatever u develop may not be an issue unless of course the land is leased and in that case a lease is always accompanied with a set of special conditions that define how the development in it ought to be done...in liaison with the respective council...
When I admire the wonder of a sunset or the beauty
of the moon, my soul expands in worship of the Creator.
itz
#102 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 4:10:53 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 3/20/2009
Posts: 348
I wish people would be engaged with this kind of zeal and fervor on the issue of massive increase in size of government in kenya.The politicians will look for the easiest way out to raise revenue as they expand gvt and increase their perks while killing investments in much needed sectors like housing.Ever heard of the saying "if you want less of something, tax it" This is exactly what the gvt and the people of kenya will get.I have seen people like alma and alibaba defend this move but am sure they are looking at the people who have made a kill in real estate but in the aggregate of the whole population they are the few.So to come out with a punitive 30% tax to get a small majority u end up hurting the majority more because there will be less investment in real estate.
@architect.to suggest that the wealthy should be taxed mercilessly is quite absurd.you must have been a US democrat in another life.When you attack capital and the rich like that,they are smart and they look for places where their capital is treated better.In kenya we need more investment in housing for at least another 10 years to meet the demand.To say that u tax people with the most capital is just not wise.I always ask, has anyone ever been employed by a poor person.Please stop attacking the wealthy, think of a way to get yourself to that level instead.
maina20
#103 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 4:13:08 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/21/2010
Posts: 249
Location: nairobi
Ali Baba wrote:
He he he!! Ati,a tenant like me be involved in landlord's tax evasion schemes??Are you trying to send me to Kamiti maximum because of a few shillings/month??That is the joke of this month.Someone evades taxes by himself/herself!!!

I guess major companies like Knight Frank and the rest which manage tenants will be easily managed by the tax man.if you count the number of tenants in CBD and other major cities/ town, then it will be a significant contribution to the taxman....
for tenants in West or eastlands, am sure they will build residential houses in the plots they hold in kitengela, kamulu,ruiru, etc since with bypasses it takes more less the same time to reach town from umoja or ruiru. I think more guys will buy property to build than to speculate.... for business in CBD,then no choice but to comply, and as usual...pass the cost to the consumer..
..desire to succeed is always fighting with fear of failure..
alma
#104 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 4:50:37 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
For those saying that I'm supporting the "new" tax all I can say is that you fall in the bracket of people we call tax evaders or otherwise those going against the law.

So if you've not been paying taxes on your rental property what you should do is go to church this weekend and thank your God coz if this was America, you'd be paying for all those years you illegally refused to pay your taxes.

So lets begin there.

To complain that taxing property owners is as good as a sin is where we shall disagree.

When I see Kenyans visiting America and they start staring at those roads, where the hell do you think the gov't got the money to build those roads? Facebook Ipo?

It was a system that collected taxes from all that were required to by law.

We are on this forum daily complaining about the quality of services from our gov't, kanjo etc...Where in God's name do you think they'll get the funding needed if everyone refuses to pay tax?

But I'm digressing.

I'm not for the figure of 30%, 10% or even 110%. Thats going to be the work of your elected leaders. Of course you will be too busy looking to see if his a jaruo or gikuyu to note that he has the power to change those figures.

Its about the need for a system that works for everyone.

We can't have walalos coming to this country and buying all the land in Eastleigh with pirate money and living free off the sweat of the watchie who's salary is cut to pay paye, nhif, etc.

If you are a landlord, and have never paid your rental tax, then you are as good as that walalo pirate you always complain about.

lipeni ushuru...We may yet build Konza with it.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
kangi
#105 Posted : Friday, June 15, 2012 6:25:28 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 7/23/2009
Posts: 526
alma wrote:
For those saying that I'm supporting the "new" tax all I can say is that you fall in the bracket of people we call tax evaders or otherwise those going against the law.

So if you've not been paying taxes on your rental property what you should do is go to church this weekend and thank your God coz if this was America, you'd be paying for all those years you illegally refused to pay your taxes.

So lets begin there.

To complain that taxing property owners is as good as a sin is where we shall disagree.

When I see Kenyans visiting America and they start staring at those roads, where the hell do you think the gov't got the money to build those roads? Facebook Ipo?

It was a system that collected taxes from all that were required to by law.

We are on this forum daily complaining about the quality of services from our gov't, kanjo etc...Where in God's name do you think they'll get the funding needed if everyone refuses to pay tax?

But I'm digressing.

I'm not for the figure of 30%, 10% or even 110%. Thats going to be the work of your elected leaders. Of course you will be too busy looking to see if his a jaruo or gikuyu to note that he has the power to change those figures.

Its about the need for a system that works for everyone.

We can't have walalos coming to this country and buying all the land in Eastleigh with pirate money and living free off the sweat of the watchie who's salary is cut to pay paye, nhif, etc.

If you are a landlord, and have never paid your rental tax, then you are as good as that walalo pirate you always complain about.

lipeni ushuru...We may yet build Konza with it.

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Accept no one's definition of your life; define your life.
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