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Impact of 30% rental income tax on housing development in Kenya
Ali Baba
#21 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:32:32 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
NAKUJUA: hakuna hasira.Yes,some pay.Some don't.Some pay for some income and evade others....
Ali Baba
#22 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:36:55 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
No one stops investing because of taxes.In this case housing development will continue without any hitch.Anyone who stops investing because of taxes is not an investor.And there is no venture which will be exempt from taxation.Show me one.
alma
#23 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:46:25 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Oh boy...We shout at wazua that MP's are evading taxes and when we are asked to pay our share we start screaming bloody murder.

It's time for Kenyans to get realistic with this property investing bubble. Coz it is a bubble.

Rental income is income..So why don't you want to pay up like an employee who pays income?

Ati increase rents? Do that and your house will be empty. I'm seeing a quite a few in South C where guys think they can charge what they wish and get away with it.

The days of making super normal profits with shady houses are over.

Next, they should implement taxation on land and property not developed.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
Ali Baba
#24 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 4:59:29 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
ALMA:thank you very much.That is what I was trying to tell them.Pay up.We all hate taxes.Even me,I hate taxes but I pay.Pay up guys.Don't be like MPigs.We should know better.We all want Kenya to develop.Or you(evaders) want Kenya to be like Democratic Republic Of Congo????PAY,PAY,PAY....
Mkimwa
#25 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:22:18 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2008
Posts: 380
Say I take a loan to finance a development, I pay interest on the loan. Will the interest be deducted first from the rent, before levying the 30%?

What about other costs - e.g. security, garbage, gardener, repairs?

If the net rental income (after deducting all related expenses) is what is going to be taxed, that is ok.
alma
#26 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:31:49 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
You are taxed on income not profits. Otherwise everyone will cook up a scheme to get a rental income of 50k go all the way to 5k after deducting the lavington watchies salary.

The impact on real estate is simple..It will bring real estate returns to reasonable and sustainable levels as they are all over the world.

As it is in Kenya, I can simply go steal some money from someone,build a house in mlolongo and declare myself a pauper. Then come to wazua to complain about the roads in Syokimau.

We have to be honest here. The real estate market in Kenya was burning up and was totally unrealistic and open to all the pirate money from the whole world.

Buy a house and eat the money you stole.

Now at least you will have to pay taxes on your stolen money....Not perfect, but better.

As for increasing rents, that's hogwash. If I pay rent of 30k it means I have disposable income of 30k.

Just because my landlord wants to pay his taxes does not mean that I will pay more rent.

Also consider the guys who have 10 houses at 30k. All of a sudden their incomes are at 300k. The clever ones will sell quickly. The fools will continue building rentals as interest rates are as crazy as they are.

As it stands, I would rather buy shares in mortgage banks than buy a rental.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
MaichBlack
#27 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:38:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/22/2009
Posts: 7,452
alma wrote:
You are taxed on income not profits. Otherwise everyone will cook up a scheme to get a rental income of 50k go all the way to 5k after deducting the lavington watchies salary.

That would be preposterous!!!! Pay 30% on turn over? Which other industry is taxed at that level?
Never count on making a good sale. Have the purchase price be so attractive that even a mediocre sale gives good returns.
alma
#28 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:43:12 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
MaichBlack wrote:
alma wrote:
You are taxed on income not profits. Otherwise everyone will cook up a scheme to get a rental income of 50k go all the way to 5k after deducting the lavington watchies salary.

That would be preposterous!!!! Pay 30% on turn over? Which other industry is taxed at that level?


MaichBlack maybe its not obvious to you that I'm not a taxation expert.....I'm just hoping and praying that its on the net income.

Which unfortunately now means that each and every expense you declare on your tax returns will have to be recorded.

So if you say that you paid Kanyotu frowa gadenas 3k. Kanyotu had better get his tax papers in order.

I'm loving this policy very much...It will catch more people in the tax bracket.

So relax Maich its just my wish..I doubt if its the case unless you run your rental business like your kashamba.....oooops most do.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
ralp_mutu
#29 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 5:57:08 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 232
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
MaichBlack wrote:
alma wrote:
You are taxed on income not profits. Otherwise everyone will cook up a scheme to get a rental income of 50k go all the way to 5k after deducting the lavington watchies salary.

That would be preposterous!!!! Pay 30% on turn over? Which other industry is taxed at that level?


MaichBlack maybe its not obvious to you that I'm not a taxation expert.....I'm just hoping and praying that its on the net income.

Which unfortunately now means that each and every expense you declare on your tax returns will have to be recorded.

So if you say that you paid Kanyotu frowa gadenas 3k. Kanyotu had better get his tax papers in order.

I'm loving this policy very much...It will catch more people in the tax bracket.

So relax Maich its just my wish..I doubt if its the case unless you run your rental business like your kashamba.....oooops most do.


Its on the Net income (The profit) Even those guy at KRA are realistic and also landlords
My folks told me that my very first word was 'billionaire'
kazee
#30 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:02:02 PM
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Joined: 9/18/2006
Posts: 131
The income tax act which you can download online is very very clear on this even to a layman by the way. Am no accountant but from what i read, rent income is not subject to VAT (16%), revenue tax(5% of gross revenue- it says that). Tax on rent is expected to fall under the same bands of employment tax and therefore anything above 30k will be taxed at about 30% of gross income.
This may definately have an impact on rents since as every supplier does e.g. eabl and BAT when taxes go up, new prices are posted in print media the next day. The rent may not go up by 30% since that would be horrendous but they will definately rise.
Bachuma Gate
#31 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:18:18 PM
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Joined: 3/26/2012
Posts: 280
ALMA and Ali

Pls see my post again. It is not about tax evasion.

Give me your thoughts on point :-

1. ROI on rental properties viz other investments like Stocks, T/Bills and bonds. The reasons is investing in real estate is not a full time activity for most guys. So if it does not pay well why would I want to go developing houses than invest in Stocks and T/Bs.

2. With the high interest rates in Kenya, I am seeing guys almost getting zero from this biz.

Pls your thought out opinion as an investor.
DOH
kyt
#32 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:54:15 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 2,182
i think the KRA guys really have to think this over, because as i see it its going to be hard to determine how many tenants are occupying the house at one go. the cost of ensuring this is adhered to maybe higher than its benefit.
LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
kyt
#33 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 6:58:18 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 2,182
then again guys who have single rooms will also not be affected since maybe a house may have 6 rooms@2500. ukilipa agent, maybe security na maybe one is un occupied. ur net is less than 10k which is not taxable. itakuwa hard.
LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
kyt
#34 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:02:08 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/7/2007
Posts: 2,182
i also think that if all goes bad. people will just "sell" all their houses to companies (plus the liabilities) what will be left of the net given that loans are more expensive than the income?~answers please!!
LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
Ndaragwa
#35 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 7:29:26 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 108
kazee wrote:
The income tax act which you can download online is very very clear on this even to a layman by the way. Am no accountant but from what i read, rent income is not subject to VAT (16%), revenue tax(5% of gross revenue- it says that). Tax on rent is expected to fall under the same bands of employment tax and therefore anything above 30k will be taxed at about 30% of gross income.
This may definately have an impact on rents since as every supplier does e.g. eabl and BAT when taxes go up, new prices are posted in print media the next day. The rent may not go up by 30% since that would be horrendous but they will definately rise.


Kazee you seem to have read the income tax act. I am just curious realizing Kenyans in the diaspora own a lot of rental properties in Kenya. Do they pay Kenyan taxes on their rental income? I imagine they report the rental income as foreign income in their country of residence and pay the taxes on the income.Sounds like it could be a case of double taxation.
Ali Baba
#36 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:48:00 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
Ndaragwa:when you say "kenyans in diaspora" pay taxes as in foreign income in their taxes.Yes,In most countries like the US are supposed to do that.Double taxation??No.US exempts taxes paid...if the tax was paid to another jurisdiction.However,a good number of kenyans in the diaspora are also in default.They don't pay any tax on rental income in any jurisdiction....
Ali Baba
#37 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 8:55:49 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
Tax on rental income should be on net profit.If the salary of your guard is sh100k,that's ok.Just provide KRA with his PIN number so as to confirm his PAYE payments.Its simple.Isn't it???
Ndaragwa
#38 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:24:03 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/12/2011
Posts: 108
Ali Baba wrote:
Ndaragwa:when you say "kenyans in diaspora" pay taxes as in foreign income in their taxes.Yes,In most countries like the US are supposed to do that.Double taxation??No.US exempts taxes paid...if the tax was paid to another jurisdiction.However,a good number of kenyans in the diaspora are also in default.They don't pay any tax on rental income in any jurisdiction....


Ali Baba I agree Kenyans in the diaspora should pay taxes on rental income to some jurisdiction. USA has no income tax treaty with Kenya that would exempt diaspora residents in the US from any taxes they pay in Kenya - so, I think it would be double taxation for those who pay taxes in Kenya on their rental income and pay another tax on the same income in US. Any insights from a tax expert?? How are the tax treaties between Kenya and Great Britain; and Australia where most of the diaspora are residents??
Ali Baba
#39 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:49:16 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
NDARAGWA:Foreign earned income clause exempts Kenyans in US who pay taxes in another jurisdiction the amount subsequently paid.Don't get complicated with tax treaties.Its already there.However,Kenyans in diaspora acts are illegal of failing to declare rental income in any jurisdiction...
Ali Baba
#40 Posted : Thursday, June 14, 2012 9:52:19 PM
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Joined: 8/29/2008
Posts: 571
Ndaragwa,visit IRS website and check "foreign income"....its all there;no need for treaties and commerce secretaries to meet with Githae to iron out agreements....
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