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Bob :'Safaricom a bigger, & more trusted, brand than the church'
Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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Bill Gates is doing so much for people in Africa and he is an atheist. [/quote] Lets not get too carried away. Bill Gates believes in Eugenics, the "good" he is doing is ensuring population control so that his great great grandchildren will have enough of the already scarce resources.Basically lets kill off or vastly limit the amount of poor people, so we will have enough resources. Just thought I should point that out, dont want to get into the whole God debate, coz its a personal choice. http://www.naturalnews.c...s_Monsanto_eugenics.html
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 7/22/2011 Posts: 1,325
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/15/2006 Posts: 3,905
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@hamburglar I understand and respect because I have definitely not walked your journey. Heck, it appears you have genuine grounds to be mad/ angry/ disappointed/ denounce God, let alone all we hypocritical religious folk out there.
You agree with me you don't see life now the way you saw it 20 years ago. Similarly you must give room for growth in wisdom in another 20 years.
But I did see some irony in your last post:
+ you mentioned "god" 17 times
+ you believe so much in humanity despite us being directly responsible for most of what you would blame God for
+ Bill Gates/Warren Buffet are agnostics not atheists. History shows almost all prolific achievers having belief in a greater cause.
Finally, I assure you many who see your success, your neighbour, underprivledged kids, and those you help thank God for the blessing you are. So if my actions as a Chrisitian were weighed against yours, some would see more Goodness in you.
"One good deed is worth a thousand prayers." – Zarathushtra
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/16/2011 Posts: 59
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@hamburglar, Quote:That's why I say, getting out of the shackles of religion gives one a better vision of the reality . That is not necessary true, Mao and Stalin got out of "these shackles" and ended up leading to the death of at least 100 million innocent lives. God and religion are two different things and might not be directly related as you may think. Religion as you have said is a cultural meme.We as subsaharan Africans together with the Norwegians might worship the same God but end up in different religions because of the cultural differences. Quote:Mmarto, thanks for being civil, but I don't need to pray to have faith, I would rather use logic than faith any day. Never rely too much on logic.Not all decisions you will make in this life will be logical.There is a certain species on this earth who along with logic use intuition.You know them. Your questions touching on the nature of God are simple. Quote:If your god is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent like you guys claim, that means that he knows everything, he knows what we will do even before we do it, right? So how is it free will if he already knows what your choice will be? And if his way is the right way like you guys purport, why doesn't he just make everybody choose his way? Why doesn't he just get rid of sin? The notion of repenting is ludicrous, just get rid of sin and this world would be paradise. This god is supposed to be perfect, right? So how come he created such an imperfect world. Do you believe in free wheel?
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/17/2011 Posts: 887
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muganda wrote:@hamburglar I understand and respect because I have definitely not walked your journey. Heck, it appears you have genuine grounds to be mad/ angry/ disappointed/ denounce God, let alone all we hypocritical religious folk out there.
You agree with me you don't see life now the way you saw it 20 years ago. Similarly you must give room for growth in wisdom in another 20 years.
But I did see some irony in your last post:
+ you mentioned "god" 17 times
+ you believe so much in humanity despite us being directly responsible for most of what you would blame God for
+ Bill Gates/Warren Buffet are agnostics not atheists. History shows almost all prolific achievers having belief in a greater cause.
Finally, I assure you many who see your success, your neighbour, underprivledged kids, and those you help thank God for the blessing you are. So if my actions as a Chrisitian were weighed against yours, some would see more Goodness in you.
"One good deed is worth a thousand prayers." – Zarathushtra Muganda, I am glad that you are being very civil about this. Trust me, it's not easy being an atheist amongst die hard theists. I have lost friends who did not agree with my convictions, a problem which highlights just how intolerant theists can be and yet they proclaim themselves to be a loving people. I on the other hand would never discriminate against anybody or have hate towards anyone based on their religious beliefs. I have had what I thought to be objective debates with Christians and it always ended up with me being called names and/or insulted which further justifies my point about this whole religion thing and just how godly or ungodly religious people are. It's unfortunate that the same people that claim to be godly and righteous are the ones that are quick to insult, cut friendship and judge anyone that does not subscribe to their beliefs. And yet we ask ourselves everyday why religious bloodshed will never end, why we will never have world peace....The answer is right there infront of us....Religion.... I have never heard of any wars fought in the name of atheism because all the atheists that I know don't care about what religion one belongs to, atheists only care about how we can make the world a better place for everyone.... Believe it or not, my sentiments here are coming from a good place and that's why I am here writing post after post. If I can make somebody successful through my words, then am all for it. I have seen it all. I have been on both sides of the equation and I can uneqoivocally say that I see the world clearer from my vantage point now. I hear you when you tell me to wait and see what another 20 year would bring in terms of wisdom, but on the same token, while I navigate life through the next 20 years, I feel like I am a better human being as an atheist. That's all we can ask for, to be a better human being therefore I have no desire of switching allegiance while I am at peace with who I am. I doubt (actually know) that I will never go back to theism because atheism has done wonders in my life, but I also would never discount the power of wisdom that comes with age. You say that I mention god 17 times, that might be true, but I mention this god to prove a point. The point here being he does not exist, only in people's minds. Otherwise if he existed, I would think he would want his children to have a much better life than what people go through today. I know that if I had the power to give my children (if I ever get any) a better life, I would do it in a heartbeat. I am not sure what he is waiting for, why is he so hesitant to just snap his fingers and make this world paradise for everybody. Afterallm, he is god, right? He can do everything, right? You also say that I put blame on god for man's doing or undoing in this world, but my rebuttal to you is that this man that is doing injustice to the world that we live in is governed by your god. The same man that is killing each other for religious reasons is doing it the name of god. So ultimately, god is responsible for man's inhumanity. Bill Gates and Warren Buffets might be agnostic, but I have agnostic friends and in reality, agnostics are simply closeted atheists because they also got to the point in their lives that they started questioning god. Once you start questioning god, you are on the other side of the fence, whether agnostic or atheist. Same difference to me. You are either for or against, can't have it two ways. And to those kids that I have had the opportunity to help, it really doesn't matter if they thank me or they thank god, because at the end of the day, the bottom line was achieved, and the bottom line is that a human being as opposed to a god helped a fellow human being that was in need. Whoever they want to thank it's their prerogative, everybody has a right to religionor lack threof, but my goal has been achieved at the end of the day and I can go to sleep at night knowing that I made a difference in somebody's life, I helped a person in need and for that, I don't expect a reward here on earth or when I die. I don't expect or want blessings for doing a good deed, just like I don't expect or want to be rewared with a "heaven" when I die for doing what is the right thing to do. I only want other people to have the same mindset and stop living in fear or retribution from a mythical god. Help your neighbor, your friends, a stranger without any strings attached with a god, and this world will be a better place. The notion of reason is very very powerful. If more people would use reason and employ more reason instead of having false faith that a non-existent deity will come to their aid when in need, we would have a much more progressive world. There is a reason why natural selection targets theists....Have a good weekend y'all.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/15/2011 Posts: 4,518
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Why do aethists love arguing and engaging in never ending debates? And they keep saying similar things one would think they are reading from the same script. ok what was the thread title Bob? argh don't like him "The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/23/2009 Posts: 1,626
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i cant delete my own post,never knew that Uncertainty is certain.Let go
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 12/31/2011 Posts: 11
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If you believe that there is devil, then God also exists. the reason why i believe the devil is there is because he is more visible on earth with his evil deeds. How would you explain Vudu, Black Magic, Charm or whatever name you want to call it. and don't tell me it does not exist we all know uchawi exists. And when i talk of black magic am not referring to those jobless Kenyans who have discovered an opportunity to exploit Kenyans by pretending to be Witch doctors. Am talking about the real ones who make men and women of integrity eat grass like goats and those make stolen TV's get stuck on peoples backs.. ref to 2008 PEV in Mombasa.
To me this explains that there is some power beyond what we can see. Witch doctors use the powers of the evil one 'Devil'. and if devil exists then God too is there to protect you and me from the evil one.
The biggest mistake that atheists make it to blame God for the Mistakes of Human Beings, Human Beings brought Aids unto themselves, Tobacco Companies are selling cancer by stick and beer companies are selling diabetes by bottle. We all know that but we will still blame God when we finally get lung cancel. We have tampered with and polluted the environment so much that we are to blame for all our problems, If a pastor decides to steal from the congregation that is not God, that is a human being stealing from another human being, if a Father decides to sodomize young boys, those are individual deeds that will be judged individually. Sin in Church has not started today, even when Jesus was around he would find men of God gambling in the house of the Lord. That did not make God a gambler.
From time immemorial human being has always been spiritual and they have always believed in some form of higher power. our great great grand fathers worshiped facing mount Kenya, others worshiped their cows, while their counterparts in India had their idols. How would you explain the fact that Africans believed is some higher power even before they knew the Asians existed or got influences by Europeans with their Christianity.
There is a difference between religion and Spirituality. All the churches that are fighting each other and stealing from the congregation are not mentioned anywhere in the bible. God is interested in your souls not your church. There is a possibility that most of them do not represent God or his interests. but that does not mean God does not exist.
Take time to understand God and what he represents. and you will find true peace.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/9/2006 Posts: 1,502
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Quote:hamburglar wrote:So @hamburglar, I would say live your best life. It is your uduty not to ascribe to someone's dogma. But if your acute reasoning is something to go by I can promise you this: men who stare keenly past death's door see more.
Muganda, There is nothing to see past death's door. You sound like an intelligent guy, but you and I both know that after you die, you are worm's food, 6 feet under and nothing more, that's the end of the road....I stopped fearing words like you last sentence just because I live in reality, and this reality has given me a peace of mind that I never had when I was religious back in the day. I look back at my religious days and where I am now and I feel so much at peace with my life. Religion was holding me back. I have been successful in life and most of it I can attribute directly to my atheism. See, when theists are faced with hurdles, they turn to God for answers in the form of prayer....In my experience, when I was religious (and I grew up in a very religious family), these prayers never got me anywhere. Man has been praying for centuries, but look at the state of world today, it's still catastrophically messed up. We have Muslim fundamentals on a murderous streak, killing indiscriminately, bombing everything that in their warped brainwashed minds believe is not in line with their Islam beliefs. Catholics killing of protestants in Ireland, Muslims and Christians massacring each other in Nigeria, Palestinians and Jews in the Middle East, Christians in Uganda persecuting gay people, I could go on and on and on but I have a feeling you already know where I am going with this. All this killing is done in the name of God. Surely, can this god just be contently sitting wherever he is and just letting all this happen? Anyway, my point is, as soon as I decided to ditch religion and spirituality, I understood that, if I am faced with a hurdle, instead of praying to god, it's better for me to figure out a way to overcome that hurdle on my own. Guess what, that mentality really opened my mind. I became a better thinker, a doer, self reliant and it helped me start critically thinking outside of the box and that thinking has contributed to much of my success which in turn I have used to help my fellow man. I hate to put my business in public, but I will for once. With the success that I have achieved in life, I have been able to pay school fees for under-privileged kids and with the help of an affluent friend of mine, I have already secured land in Athi River where I hope to one day open a children’s home and try to help some more. I am at the point in my life where I know that it's up to man to help fellow man, because praying and waiting for this so called god to intervene will never happen. People continue to suffer and wait for their prayers to be answered. I am a realist and every minute that we waste praying, a child dies of hunger. This thinking has made me embrace humanity as opposed to religion. I believe in humanity, in human beings helping each other because the results are tangible. I have never seen any results from all those years that people have been praying to a higher deity for answers, and the reason is because there is no higher deity. Religion suppresses common sense. Most religious people do not want to think because they say that they will leave it in god's hands. That is a tacit fallacy, a mentality that holds people behind. Norway is the richest country in the world going by average income, but is the least religious country too with about 30% of the country believing in a deity. Sub-Sahara Africa is the poorest but average about 90% believers of some sort of god. Even though correlation does not equal causation, but there is a clear relationship between these two concepts. The reason why most white people tend to do better in life is because they don't subscribe to any religious dogma. Religion is very dangerous. It's the cause of natural selection. That's why I say, getting out of the shackles of religion gives one a better vision of the reality. Mmarto, thanks for being civil, but I don't need to pray to have faith, I would rather use logic than faith any day. Plus, if this god really existed, why do we have to pray to ask for anything? If he can already see what we need, why can't he just give it to us and stop the suffering that mankind goes through daily? Logically, is I was this god and I saw that someone needed something, I wouldn't wait for him to pray and ask for it, I would just give it to him. This god must have a huge ego that needs to be stroked before he can grant people favors. What's the point of praying to ask for something? Why can't he just make it available and make people's lives easier? If I have food and my neighbor is starving to death, I won't wait until he asks me for some food, I will just give it to him. This praying business defies logic, but indoctrinization is one of the hardest thing to get rid of. Besides we are all just victims of our environement. If Mmarto you were born in Saudi Arabia, you would be shouting allah wakbar at the top of your voice. It just happens that you were born into a christian family and that's why you are christian. It makes no sense why god would let religion cause so much destruction to the world. And that's why I am an atheist and glad that I saw the light. As for judgement day, that's part of the fear that's perpetuated by man. There will not be any judgement and if there is, then I will ask tell this god that I lived a consciously clean life, better than most of my hypocrite christian friends that I see doing unchristian things everyday. If he wants to send me to this so called "hell" for not kissing his ass, then I will gladly go because I refuse to kiss ass so as to be rewarded in the end. I will do good deeds and continue to do everything in my power to help my fellow man, because that is what life is all about. Bill Gates is doing so much for people in Africa and he is an atheist. I would rather associate with the works of atheists like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet than follow secular leaders like the Roman Catholic priests and their daily molestation scandals, Pastor Long and a bunch of so many other crooked pastors and priest that are too many to name. I am where I am today because of this decision that I made. My friends and peers who are still clinging to religion are still going through life tribulations waiting for their prayers to be answered. I see it all the time. I have friends that are waiting for god to open doors for them when in reality, if they just took time to invest in their own abilities, these doors would have been opened a long time ago. I have seen friends who continue to suffer because they left their whole life in the hands of god, instead of using the head to get things done in their lives...One of my friends found himself homeless after he lost his job and decided to put everything in god's hands....Well, apparently god had other better things to do....If this same guy would have used his head instead of depending on this missing in action god, would he have gone out to get another job and I know he would have got a new job, he would still have his house today....But he chose to be a regular church member instead of looking for a new job and he ended up in a homeless shelter. Case of reason versus faith. You be the judge. Maybe this post will open some people's eyes, maybe not, but to each their own. Region is the cause of all problems rather than solution . I live in an atheist society and close to 30% of our food is thrown away. Africa is a religious fanatic continent where even their god can't provide the basics in life like food. If their god is too weak and selfish and fanatics force me to worship him. No way. work to prosper
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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Muganda and hamburgler, things arent as straight forward as the seem to. but one day we will see who is right or wrong. in the meantime lets jimbamba na jimbambe tariff. LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 8/18/2011 Posts: 85
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To all you atheist!!! Matthew 16:26 "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" Don't limit your challenges, but challenge your limits
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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So where's Bob in all this? Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2010 Posts: 2,220 Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
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panomaz wrote:
To all you atheist!!! Matthew 16:26 "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"
Good one! @Humburger, countries that have gained the whole world(the earthly riches, what is seen) tend to lose their soul(what is not seen), their essence, meaning the Africans you call poor(by sight, what your physical eyes show/tell u) are actually the richest. Countries with a poor soul(what can't be seen), your essence, have the highest suicide rates! http://en.wikipedia.org/...untries_by_suicide_rate
@Humburger, is your soul, your essence at rest/peace? I hope so! @Muganda, good points you have raised! @SufficientlyP
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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problem is that the atheists dont believe in that soul u r talking about. LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 2/3/2010 Posts: 1,797 Location: Kenya
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@humbglar the richest group in the world are Jews not atheists. again don't measure success using monetary terms only Ask God to reveal himself to you Coz he's just bubbling under as for Bob he reminds me of the tower of Babel when men thought like him I may be wrong..but then I could be right
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2010 Posts: 2,220 Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
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kyt wrote:problem is that the atheists dont believe in that soul u r talking about. It's called living in denial! How can a stem detach itself from its roots & claim to be independent?But how can you see the root unless you dig deeper into the undergrounds? @SufficientlyP
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Rank: Elder Joined: 9/23/2010 Posts: 2,220 Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
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digitek1 wrote:@humbglar the richest group in the world are Jews not atheists. again don't measure success using monetary terms only
Ask God to reveal himself to you Coz he's just bubbling under
as for Bob he reminds me of the tower of Babel when men thought like him So true. The jews control about a fifth of the global economy & about 40% of the world's superpower yet they don't say it in the day! @SufficientlyP
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/4/2010 Posts: 1,668 Location: nairobi
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Sufficiently Philanga....thropic wrote:panomaz wrote:
To all you atheist!!! Matthew 16:26 "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?"
Good one! @Humburger, countries that have gained the whole world(the earthly riches, what is seen) tend to lose their soul(what is not seen), their essence, meaning the Africans you call poor(by sight, what your physical eyes show/tell u) are actually the richest. Countries with a poor soul(what can't be seen), your essence, have the highest suicide rates! http://en.wikipedia.org/...untries_by_suicide_rate
@Humburger, is your soul, your essence at rest/peace? I hope so! @Muganda, good points you have raised! True..rich countries e.g USA,Australia,Northern Europe usually have very most of these bizzare cases e.g cannibalism.. As Iron Sharpens Iron, So one Man Sharpens Another.
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/23/2007 Posts: 604
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@Humburger - I understand you. You're like this fellow of www.muhia.comHe was an atheist to the core. Brought up as a Christian, became an atheist and on his own 'met God'. You can chat him.
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/20/2010 Posts: 412 Location: nairobi
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@ a4architect.com "True..rich countries e.g USA,Australia,Northern Europe usually have very most of these bizzare cases e.g cannibalism.." I trust that you are not one of those who pick an incident and extrapolate it to all. Cannibalism is a practise in places like papua new guinea, jungles of the amazon and, yes in very few african tribal communities eons ago. Why pick and brand africans as cannibalis when the west is so full of worse evils. The only time you should be looking down on others is when you are helping them up.
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