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if Kenya is to go at war with Uganda
Rank: Member Joined: 12/8/2008 Posts: 359
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Can you behave yourselves!
1. Kenyan soldiers don't die (as much) on peacekeeping missions for one simple reason: they are not combatants but spectators
2. Certificates and UN presents count for nothing in battle. Real war is a fight to the finish....sometimes it has to be dirty. UG can play dirty,not sure Kenya can. That's why we have certificates and top ratings and they don't.
3.Using victory over a ragtag outfit like SLDF to gauge our military capability is pathetic.
Be careful what you wish for...be a realistic patriot.
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/5/2008 Posts: 86
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@Sukuma,You are just about it on numbers.
@eduboy,you sound like one of them.
How can Kenyan military claim to be disciplined and responsible when they stood aside as Kenyans set upon each other during the PEV? Don't tell me that was internal security matter to be dealt with by the Police! The karaos were literally overwhelmed while they were just boozing and running around with women.
A Country's army cannot stand by and watch it's borders being breached by a bully neighbour. UG has encroached into Migingo and Pokot,Ethiopia had done that to the North,next it will be the Somali militias (Pirates) attacking from the East then TZ. You obviously expect them (army) to coil their tails between their legs as they've done numerously before. Sometime back Gen Opande said in the media that F5 jets were flown into Somali following a raid in which livestock were lost. Somali elders quickly converged and the animals were returned. That's the might and pride of a Country. An Army must show its might to deter enemies. Today we are just a punching bag.
Why then do they walk in such colourful crisp uniforms and insignia! What are they for? Are they decorations? Look at Gen Kianga,Karangi,Mwathethe,Tangai et al. They look like corporate excecutives,living so lavishly while the country is being auctioned.
This is a place where one enrols into the Army and retires without steppping into a battlefield.
Not that I want war,BUT our sovereignty must be defended.
Chief
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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We seriously thwack those m7 boys........those are watchmen for crying out loud!!! Make money.....then you will enjoy all the fine things in life!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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Successful militaries dont go to war,they prevent it. N kenbatts dont go to serve food,they go for peacekeeping,frontline. Many have died. I have friends in there. But its true the public opinion is a force to reckon with in all military affairs. However,ours isnt genuine,its fanned by our brainless media and nyanza politicians,but public opinion nevertheless. Finally,@all,the military is a serious national objectives tool deployed only by the president,probably advised by the cabinet. Even if kenya burns,they can never leave the barracks for war till the president says so (unless its a coup). My two indian rupees. Truest proverb: Mwenda pole hajikwai TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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Am with Simonkabz on this one.any military is a vital and important asset whose control and deployment is strictly governed by civilian,read President,authority.there are controls to stop even him from misusing this resource.thats why,even in America,Congress has oversight.otherwise,we would have soldiers everywhere doing this and that.dont forget,these are men who are taught to use maximum force for maximum effect. When you have a sword,you rarely use it unless you're attacked.what do you do to it in the mean time?you sharpen it and oil it and teach yourself to use it.the military is such.before Gulf War One,the Americans had last fought during the Vietnam War.The Iraqis had just recovered from the Iraq-Iran War.and dont get me wrong.they had the numbers too. WHO DARES WINS WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 3
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Kenya military needs a serious infusion of training and equipment beef-up. Uganda will kick ass until they dip it in Kibaki arse!
What we need is not necessarily war but a PRESIDENT
I try everything in the world to make ends meet. Cheers
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/28/2008 Posts: 36
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@Sukuma it's not about numbers,rather capability. Sample the US and China for instance (according to wikipedia): The Chinese military has 2.25 million troops while the US has 1.85. Would you end your comparison there?The Chinese military budget is 70Billion USD while that of the US is over 700Billion USD.China has 1,252 fighter jets while the US has 3,022 fighter jets. Need I continue? That preamble was just to dispel the notion of judging a military by its numbers. On the Kenya/Uganda front,it would certainly not be a picnic for our military. In fact,I honestly think we would have our asses handed to us. Why? Corruption. I say it again,corruption will be our undoing. When you compare Uganda's economy to ours,we are miles ahead,yet our capabilities are behind (they have more tanks,personnel etc). Our corrupt leaders are pre-occupied with 'eating' so much,that even our defenses are compromised.Sample this piece (and the comments that follow): http://nairobichronicle....-hardened-battle-force/
It basically tells of how our military is not that impressive,what with piracy at the Indian ocean with no mention of the Kenya navy in all the stories we've read and now the bullying by Uganda at Migingo. When a retired Kenyan security guy talks of how we would crush Uganda,a Ugandan commentator poses: If your army was that strong Uganda would not be in Migingo... Let’s face it,you are powerless and Uganda will leave Migingo the way we came. By the way,I also think it is your island but am relishing the humiliation and powerlessness you feel. Her's an extract from the story itself: Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni has sent the UPDF to all of Uganda’s neighbours except Tanzania. Museveni is a calculating,former rebel leader who exploits weaknesses in his neighbours to expand Uganda’s influence. With Kenyans divided on ethnic lines and ruled by corrupt leaders,Museveni must have realized that this is the best time to strike.By occupying the small island of Migingo,Museveni was testing Kenya’s political and military defences. Next time,the catch will be bigger and it will be too late for Kenya to defend itself.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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Modern wars are not faught with guns and tanks,the most important weapon is information,and tactics. Military hardware only comes into play when one side has an overwhelming advantage over the other (and that only applies to the US vs any other country in the world) or Israel and Hamas. For Kenya and Uganda neither country has an edge when it comes to military hardware or technology hence a possible war will solely depend on the ability of the military commanders to utilise information at their disposal to either attack incisively or defend resolutely. I expect our Sandhurst trained officers (hoping they are sober) would have an edge. Uganda may have double our tank sizes yet all we need are infantry with RPG's hidden somewhere on their path and that will render all their tanks useless. (And by the way their tanks are mostly T-55 (WWII) vintage,while our latest stuff is T-72,which is one step below the Soviets main battle tank the T-80) Kenya has the geographical advantage (to stifle oil supply) and don't forget the motivation that kenyans would have by virture of having to defend their homeland. Plus Kenyans are proven athletes at the world stage,(soldiers need stamina to keep matching forever) Of note is the fact that kenya has 2 armoured brigades (no foot soldiers) this would give us unmarched speed. we also have a helicopter air wing (information gathering),add to that,transfer our Navy to lake victoria and we can practically be pissing right in the middle of Kampala. Although UG does seem to have a collection of Migs to match our F5's. As for personel,wikipedia has kenya's as 40,000 army,1,000 airforce,1,000 navy,9,000 paramilitary GSU(by the way who are regarded as our trumpcard,2,000 of whom are Israeli trained),60,000 police and 20,000 APs. That gives you a ready to deploy force of 135,000. UG only has on the list some 45-50,000,Even if I were to be pessimistic and triple the number to 150,000,we would still be fairly matched . For me I can't see a war happening btn the 2 countries,but were this to take place,I would not lose any sleep,I am sure UPDF would not get anywhere. Museveni is all talk and no action,Migingo is just an acre (albeit our acre),sooner or later we will put him in his place. So stop all this cowardly talk about kenya losing to UPDF,if Museveni dares to attack kenya he will learn the difference btn a rag tag army of zealots using children as shields and a disciplned one shooting 100 tank shells as one. I guess if you can't win with facts,you can always pen bile-laced,xenophobic rants to distract everyone. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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@Simonkabz Check out wikipedia. All the info is there. I have learnt to trust wikipedia for accuracy. The migs are there,and the numbers i gave are exactly as they are quoted by wiki. Kenyans (I think its more like politicians) may be divided but our military is disciplined and inline and that explains why they did not leave their barracks even during the PEV without orders. That is the mark of an army,following orders. I guess if you can't win with facts,you can always pen bile-laced,xenophobic rants to distract everyone. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Member Joined: 10/1/2007 Posts: 232
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A carefull study of armies that took part in the second world war reveals an element of attrition. The battle hardened troops were eventualy replaced by boys barely out of their teens,and hurriedly trained to bear arms. The situation got so bad that the allies resorted to recruiting blacks into the army,something the colonialists had been against. The use of the atomic bomb quickly ended the war,thereby minimising effects of attrition on american troops. Remember america joined the war in the late stages. Even present day guerillar movements have resorted to forcefull recruitment of minors to sustain a movement. This is because their experienced men have been killed in action or seriously wounded. The american government is also recruiting non citizens to fight in iraq. History also bears witness that those who defend their homelands against foreign invasion usually adopt guerrilar warfare. Presently kenya needs only to release the local militia groups,under the command of former service men,eg mungiki to wreck havoc on the ugandan civillian population using hit and run techniques.this will outstretch uganda's security forces making them withdraw back to defensive positions.
Osama bin Laden
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/3/2006 Posts: 553
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@ obi,thanks. The thicker the thigh the sweeter the pie. The thicker the thigh the sweeter the pie.
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/18/2007 Posts: 10
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@bareta
How can Kenyan military claim to be disciplined and responsible when they stood aside as Kenyans set upon each other during the PEV? Don't tell me that was internal security matter to be dealt with by the Police! The karaos were literally overwhelmed while they were just boozing and running around with women.
A Country's army cannot stand by and watch it's borders being breached by a bully neighbour. UG has encroached into Migingo and Pokot,Ethiopia had done that to the North,next it will be the Somali militias (Pirates) attacking from the East then TZ. You obviously expect them (army) to coil their tails between their legs as they've done numerously before. Sometime back Gen Opande said in the media that F5 jets were flown into Somali following a raid in which livestock were lost. Somali elders quickly converged and the animals were returned. That's the might and pride of a Country. An Army must show its might to deter enemies. Today we are just a punching bag.
Why then do they walk in such colourful crisp uniforms and insignia! What are they for? Are they decorations? Look at Gen Kianga,Karangi,Mwathethe,Tangai et al. They look like corporate excecutives,living so lavishly while the country is being auctioned.
This is a place where one enrols into the Army and retires without steppping into a battlefield.
Not that I want war,BUT our sovereignty must be defended.
edu boy still maintains kenya tuko mbele bareta kenyan forces cud not have prevented the post violence war you and i know that they were split so ther was now way wangesaidia ata heri vile walikaa baracks there is no point of going to war let m7 sort issues na cony kwanza then we can see what to do at the moment ni uchokozi tu we all know that we are not stable hizi siasa zimekua mob if we go to war we stand to loose alot not that we are weaker we first have to sort the mess we are in and make kenya more stable at this point we are not fit for war
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Rank: Member Joined: 4/28/2008 Posts: 36
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@Obi
It's not cowardly talk when you look at factors that could cause us to lose if the unfortunate happened and we went to war. It's being pragmatic and trying to gauge our chances of 'winning'. If going to a competition of any sort,you have to look at your weaknesses. Our weakness in this case is poor leadership and corruption.
While you are spot-on about information playing a major role in deciding who might win the war,it's not all that matters. There are other issues such as capability that I had mentioned as well as decisiveness. Let me use two wars that Egypt and Israel have fought over the years to illustrate my point:
The first one is the best known,the six day war. In this particular war,Israel won convincingly,humiliating not only Egypt,but Jordan and Syria as well. It is said that the nations of Iraq,Saudi Arabia,Sudan,Tunisia,Morocco and Algeria also contributed troops and arms to the Arab forces. In this instance,those armies combined at that time had capability surpassing that of Israel by more than a factor of 3! In this case,what decided the war was the air supremacy IAF established by annihilating the Arab air forces,a pre-emptive strike ordered by a decisive leader. This,to me,illustrates the critical aspect of air superiority.
How many fighter jets do we have vis-a-vis Uganda? How is this strength reflected by our respective GDPs? What happens to the money we hear is allocated for security projects? Does Anglo-leasing come to mind? That's an example of why corruption will be our undoing and has played a big role in compromising our security.
M7 is a leader not afraid to go to war,as he has demonstrated historically. What can we say of our Commander-in-Chief? Who do you think would be decisive and pre-emptive in case of war?
Now compare the six-day war to the 1973 Yom Kippur War between Israel and Egypt/Syria. Whereas Israel had intelligence that the Arabs were about to attack,they had an indecisive leader,Golda Meir,who made the decision not to launch a pre-emptive strike. Anwar Sadat made a surprise attack and inflicted heavy damage on the Israelis,with Egypt accomplishing 95 per cent of their mission targets with negligible losses of only 5 aircraft (wikipedia). Were it not for the help of the US (weapons and intelligence that helped turn the outcome of the war to a negotiated cease-fire),Israel may have very well been annihilated (probably along with the Arabs if Israel decided to use the 'Samson Option',a term used to describe Israel's alleged deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a 'last resort' against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence).
I honestly don't think that we will go to war. But it's incidents like Migingo that highlight why corruption is probably the biggest threat to our country. It was the cause of PEV,of insecurity,poor govt services,infrastructure etc.
Btw,who knows,this hullabaloo might be a creation btwn M7 and Gen Kiguoya to distract the citizenry from something big…
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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@Skjay,I get your point,but the reason for my assessment was to demonstrate that UG has no military advantage over us. They may have been involved in some sought of war (with kony),but in all fairness it was not against an organised army like kenya's,so their battle experience is just a myth. I guess if you can't win with facts,you can always pen bile-laced,xenophobic rants to distract everyone. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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@obi,well,it might end up like a man u-arsenal contest but I wish u knew the few reasons that put us at a disadvantage. What r the pillars of a Nation?? The military,economy and the political arm. Compare the two and determine who has managed his well!! Our advantages however include: strategic geographical location (we just choke ug by closing the border),a large militant youth hungry for action,immense diplomatic experience as a result of our foreign policy of non interference(meaning we have numerous friends),OBAMA!!,other EA states who catch the cold will most likely be on our side etc. Its quite tricky. We would win the war not the battle. Truest proverb: Mwenda pole hajikwai TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Posts: 147
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As i said earlier,we are no match to the UPDF period! reason is that M7 is never tired of playing dirty wars,a war with Uganda will definitely mean a protracted war for years to come and Kenyans will emerge the losers as they have no resilience and experience to fight such sustained wars.Two a war with Uganda wont just be a Migingo affair,with Kenya serving many landlocked countries they are likely to feel the pinch in the event of war and thus may be tempted to join the war leading to a regional war,with wars already in DRC and so..,dont be shocked to find ourselves being embroiled in wars with even the DRC militia or fighting alongside Kony!what does that mean to you?.For me let us not try a war we cannot guarantee results.Better a humiliation spoken than seen!
sk lady
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Rank: Member Joined: 12/4/2007 Posts: 313
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Rank: Chief Joined: 5/9/2007 Posts: 13,095
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You guys compelled me to invite my neighbour senior army officer for supper just to engage him in this discussion. He claims Ugandan Army to them are boys; that they are the ones who have trained most of those of M7's boys. He argues a war is more economical,thus we can take advantage of blocking Uganda from most of its supplies which mostly come through Kenya and somehow paralyse them economically. This wud make them surrender easily. Our single bomb to their main power genration point wud leave them 'writhing in pain'. But he fears the current treasury might not be willing to support the idea of a war. 'War is expensive',he says. He supports his argument with what a mere 'post-election civil misunderstanding' did to our economy,what wud a real war do to us economically? He also says wars are decl with their economical significance. Like if Migingo had like oil,gold or any other significant treasure,we wud have already gone to war. i.e. what comes out of it wud be worth the destruction caused by a war. That though significant,what we gain from Migingo shud nt really make us go to war unless diplomacy has really failed. Ati we better pay the millions we are using to sort this out diplomatically than spend billions on a destructive war,yet the output from Migingo may not help us repay ourselves in the near future. Thus war shud be the last resort,but if the commander-in-chief gives a go ahead,'we wud bomb them even if the economical return is zero!!!'. Abt the equipment we have,well he remains non-commital in terms of Nos. as some of us has claimed here,but he nonetheless claims UG cant match our might. I dont know whether alikuwa tu akijipigia debe,but well those were some of his thoughts,though I have no way of authenticating some of the claims like the ones of our equipment might. But some of his arguments were logical though. What do u think? 'Tough times never last but tough peope do.'
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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Bombing a dam on river nile? Unacheza na maneno washikù? Anyone tries that n we r past tense! Bt he is rait,no sane man would go to war if the cost far outweighs the benefits. War isnt child's play,let us all agree on that. Lets not 4get the lybian and egyptian factors too. There will be no war anyway,too many issues r complicating the possibility,and neither kenya nor ug stands to gain anything significant. Nice debate though. Everyone for himself but mtibe for us all TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 2/7/2007 Posts: 11,935 Location: Nairobi
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@Thimioni, Don't tell us that in the event of a war the best Kenya would do is to send it's military to Karamoja country and shoot at shrubs.All is never fair in war...........To inflict pain and real damage to Uganda,the best would be to send the airforce over to demolish both Owen falls and Bujagali.In a matter of hours,the war would be over........BTW.Museveni has never been to war with any army.His attempt at little Rwanda never materialised coz in reality,Kagame has a smaller and better army than M7....... God gives,mugikuyu takes. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm.
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if Kenya is to go at war with Uganda
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