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tithing
Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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foe those saying that pastors demand the tithe, that money is not yours in the first place. that is God's money ten percent of your income belongs to God. that should very clear to all who say they are Christians!! whether the pastors demands or not, that is not an issue! LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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kyt wrote:Boss if you don't tithe, the bible says you are "cursed with a curse" and for the one that asked whether it is relevant in the new testament, do you only read the new testament in the bible?? wacha mchezo!! Haven't you read Mtu Biz's explanation on the origin and why tithing was then necessary??? ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/26/2008 Posts: 2,097
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Tithing has been turned into a money minting avenue to enrich a few. I know of several pastors who started poor and now live large.   "Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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kyt wrote:Boss if you don't tithe, the bible says you are "cursed with a curse" and for the one that asked whether it is relevant in the new testament, do you only read the new testament in the bible?? wacha mchezo!! @ kyt. Read the bible in context. Don't just quote phrases, understand the context. God was talking to the Jewish nation of Israel when he said that. And for good reason. If the Jews did not tithe they were literally defrauding the Tribe of Levi of their God given inheritance...as they were not alloted land along with the other tribes.. their inheritance was the tithe... which was always paid for in form of food, not currency. (currency existed in that time) Does it make sense, that the same God who while you were yet in sin, sent his Son to Die and take the fall for your sin will in the same breath curse you if you do not PAY him ? Please understand the REASON for the tithe in the bible.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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kyt wrote:foe those saying that pastors demand the tithe, that money is not yours in the first place. that is God's money ten percent of your income belongs to God. that should very clear to all who say they are Christians!! whether the pastors demands or not, that is not an issue!  You remind me of me sometime back.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 12/23/2010 Posts: 1,229
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Mtu Biz wrote:2012 wrote:kenmac wrote:for those who tithe, do you calculate it before or after tax? In businesses, do you calculate on total revenue or after deducting expenses. A good pastor I know was asked the same question and his answer was: Give what you think God gives you, if gross- give him gross, if net give him net. @ 2012 What can a creature possibly give to his creator? What God gives you? God OWNS you. - the tithe was a tax imposed by law on the Jewish state of Israel for the upkeep of the Jewish tribe of Levi who were given no inheritance when the land was divided to the 12 tribes but the tithe (always in some form of foodstuff) was their inheritance. Tithing today is out of context as far as the bible is concerned. Parallelism. Taxes & Tithes, Earthly authority & heavenly authority. "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Earthly... Jesus asked for a coin. He asked whose image was on the coin. It was Caeser's. Therefore render unto Caeser.... Heavenly.. Whose image are you made in? Ceaser's image is stamped on a coin. Where is God's image stamped? So what is it you're supposed to be giving God? If you give God what is His (your heart, life - whatever His image is stamped on), these other questions regarding money become mmot Curious: Why is it that Churches apply for tax exempt status if the Bible clearly states that we should render unto Caeser?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/26/2008 Posts: 2,097
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Mtu Biz wrote:kyt wrote:foe those saying that pastors demand the tithe, that money is not yours in the first place. that is God's money ten percent of your income belongs to God. that should very clear to all who say they are Christians!! whether the pastors demands or not, that is not an issue! You remind me of me sometime back. What did you used to do? "Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/27/2008 Posts: 4,114
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Mtu Biz wrote:mukiha wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:.....I do not dispute that churches do a lot of good.
So do some NGO's and many anonymous individuals.
What iam saying is, it is not biblical for any church or pastor to demand a tenth of anyone's income. I agree. The moment it is demanded, it ceases to be giving... and begins to head towards extortion! Nevertheless, people need to be candidly reminded about it. One of the best ways I find is telling people about projects carried out, those ongoing and those planned... and the amounts required. When people see what their giving is achieving, they give cheerfully... and the pastor has brought them closer to God, for God loves a cheerful giver. The pastors/churches should encourage people to Give period. The tithe demanded or otherwise is out of context in the church. Picture this. Your local county introduces a new tax for the purpose of building a road. The people comply and start paying up. Soon enough the road is finished and is in use. However, The local county does not stop collecting taxes for the new road... You happen move to another county where there is no such tax the roads were built up and paid for long ago.. Tithing is like paying the tax demanded in your previous county for the specific purpose of building a road, into the new county where such a tax does not exist. hope it makes sense. I don't think the two situations are the same. I think you are assuming that the money goes to the same use it was going to during the old Jewish era. This is why I said that the money given to the church regularly has been given the wrong name - tithe. Still, the pastor and the whole church administration NEED a salary. The question is, after paying salaries, what happens to the remainder? Or are the salaries adjusted upwards as the contributions grow? This is where the question of trust comes in. If you can't trust the leadership in your church, what are you doing there? You must change - either the leadership, or the church (i.e. go to another one) In my church they insist very much that we attend the AGMs so that we can see how the money is spent. The also give regular information about projects that they are involved in, both emergency projects (e.g. feeding and housing victims of the Sinai fire) and long term projects (e.g. street children rehabilitation through one of the most well-organised football clubs in Kenya). When I see the church touching the society in such an important manner, I'd be an ignorant idiot not to give it 10% of my income regularly - call it tithe or tax if you wish, I really don't care about the name! Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/27/2008 Posts: 4,114
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For Sport wrote:....Curious: Why is it that Churches apply for tax exempt status if the Bible clearly states that we should render unto Caeser?
Because the law of "Caesar" (in this case, Government of Kenya) allows for it! Caesar does not expect a church to pay him taxes so, really, the church does not owe him anything. However: the salaries earned by the church's employees (pastors and other administrators) are fully taxable like everyone else's. Nothing is real unless it can be named; nothing has value unless it can be sold; money is worthless unless you spend it.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 1/16/2007 Posts: 1,320
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mukiha wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:mukiha wrote:Mtu Biz wrote:.....I do not dispute that churches do a lot of good.
So do some NGO's and many anonymous individuals.
What iam saying is, it is not biblical for any church or pastor to demand a tenth of anyone's income. I agree. The moment it is demanded, it ceases to be giving... and begins to head towards extortion! Nevertheless, people need to be candidly reminded about it. One of the best ways I find is telling people about projects carried out, those ongoing and those planned... and the amounts required. When people see what their giving is achieving, they give cheerfully... and the pastor has brought them closer to God, for God loves a cheerful giver. The pastors/churches should encourage people to Give period. The tithe demanded or otherwise is out of context in the church. Picture this. Your local county introduces a new tax for the purpose of building a road. The people comply and start paying up. Soon enough the road is finished and is in use. However, The local county does not stop collecting taxes for the new road... You happen move to another county where there is no such tax the roads were built up and paid for long ago.. Tithing is like paying the tax demanded in your previous county for the specific purpose of building a road, into the new county where such a tax does not exist. hope it makes sense. I don't think the two situations are the same. I think you are assuming that the money goes to the same use it was going to during the old Jewish era. This is why I said that the money given to the church regularly has been given the wrong name - tithe. Still, the pastor and the whole church administration NEED a salary. The question is, after paying salaries, what happens to the remainder? Or are the salaries adjusted upwards as the contributions grow? This is where the question of trust comes in. If you can't trust the leadership in your church, what are you doing there? You must change - either the leadership, or the church (i.e. go to another one) In my church they insist very much that we attend the AGMs so that we can see how the money is spent. The also give regular information about projects that they are involved in, both emergency projects (e.g. feeding and housing victims of the Sinai fire) and long term projects (e.g. street children rehabilitation through one of the most well-organised football clubs in Kenya). When I see the church touching the society in such an important manner, I'd be an ignorant idiot not to give it 10% of my income regularly - call it tithe or tax if you wish, I really don't care about the name! Giving in this regard is Good and commendable. This is charity. It is akina @ kyt who i fear pay tithes because they are afraid of being "cursed with a curse"! It is not uncommon for such a person to withhold financial assistance to a needy neighbor or relative because they MUST tithe first.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/4/2008 Posts: 1,289 Location: Nairobi
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Mtu Biz wrote:kyt wrote:Boss if you don't tithe, the bible says you are "cursed with a curse" and for the one that asked whether it is relevant in the new testament, do you only read the new testament in the bible?? wacha mchezo!! @ kyt. Read the bible in context. Don't just quote phrases, understand the context. God was talking to the Jewish nation of Israel when he said that. And for good reason. If the Jews did not tithe they were literally defrauding the Tribe of Levi of their God given inheritance...as they were not alloted land along with the other tribes.. their inheritance was the tithe... which was always paid for in form of food, not currency. (currency existed in that time) Does it make sense, that the same God who while you were yet in sin, sent his Son to Die and take the fall for your sin will in the same breath curse you if you do not PAY him ? Please understand the REASON for the tithe in the bible. Well put. The nine tribes each gave 10% and remained with 90%. The Levites got 10% from nine tribes (adding apples and oranges they ended with 90%). These allowed the Levites to live like the other Jews, not better than others. The priest and people who work in church should get the average salaries of their attendees. These issue of pastors leaving in palaces, riding in choppers and driving big cars is ridiculous. The bible also tells men of god not to take more than they need.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/24/2007 Posts: 1,805
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@Kyt, Please read on church history and also realize that the Bible writes about the faith, culture, traditions and history of the Jews. Thus the need for Christians to study theology in detail. You will learn to differentiate these issues. Some of these merchants of the gospel have raised hell over women covering their heads, Polygamy etc all because they do not differentiate the culture, faith and religion of the Jews. The good book is very clear that 'my people perish(are conned) for lack of knowledge. How can the blind lead the blind? Christianity is all about a relationship with JESUS .. simple.. no religion, culture, traditions. He fits into all! Therefore, the issue of tithing on gross or net, or whether to tithe or not is secondary and will not take anyone to heaven or hell. If you love Jesus, you will give out of your heart not out of your income. I Think Therefore I Am
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/2/2009 Posts: 2,458 Location: Nairobi
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Ive read some goo advice on this thread.. very insightful.. very enligtening...
Bwenyeye
You have killed (Said the point that matters) this discussion.. NEXT!!!!!!!!
or i introduce Raira here!!!!
G
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Rank: Elder Joined: 11/7/2007 Posts: 2,182
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people you have good arguments but GOD does not change heb 13:8, whatever He said 1k yrs ago he will say it today. the issue of "this was to the isralites" does not arise. LOVE WHAT YOU DO, DO WHAT YOU LOVE.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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kyt wrote:people you have good arguments but GOD does not change heb 13:8, whatever He said 1k yrs ago he will say it today. the issue of "this was to the isralites" does not arise. You make a very good customer!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Elder Joined: 5/24/2007 Posts: 1,805
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kyt wrote:people you have good arguments but GOD does not change heb 13:8, whatever He said 1k yrs ago he will say it today. the issue of "this was to the isralites" does not arise. Please have a look at this link http://bible-truths-revealed.info/adv15.html
I sure hope it triggers your beautiful mind to think deeper. I Think Therefore I Am
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/23/2008 Posts: 3,966
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Oh my, how a simple word can get us lost in the myriad of explanations. Tithing in modern day times, someone should write an article with that subject matter. It seems a grey area. Personally, I tithe from my gross. Not out of demand or compulsion, but out of the principle of giving. If God gave me 100%, I dont feel bad giving 10% for His work. It's not that He needs it, but it's more of me learning the importance of giving. I give the government through taxes so as to benefit myself and others through the use of public goods. I dont feel bad when I'm taxed, neither do I when I tithe. At the end of it all, where the income came from, more is still on the way. I give because of my faith, I give because He gave His all for my sake. So whether tithing is biblical in Neo-Covenant times or not, whether it's monetary or not, I'll give my 10%.For I want to give out of love. Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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Rank: Elder Joined: 4/9/2008 Posts: 2,824
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mukiha wrote:And now to the touchy subject of church leaders/pastors suspected of thieving from the tithe. My advice is: if you suspect that the pastor at your church is dishonest, don't stop giving your tithe!
Instead, stop going to that church and join a different one where you can trust the leadership. You have no business giving God's money to some one you don't trust! @mukiha.... must you tithe in the church? I don't think so!! Secondly... supposing the white man did not come here with both the bible and the gun, could this tithing talk be there? This matter is about yourself and your God. There are people who do a lot for the poor, sick, needy, etc outside tithing system than whole church systems. So its a matter of your conscience with God. End of story. When I have money, I get rid of it quickly, lest it find a way into my heart.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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I am not saying the OT is irrelevant. I was just saying we need to examine the reasons behind the OT law. See what was in the Torah. Deut 14 Tithes 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. See? The Jews only took the tithe to the Levites in the third year and it was used for specific purposes! If you give out of love, then it's OK. But if you give so as to avoid hell or to please men, then you are wrong. It's a matter of the heart. The more I read the Bible for myself, the more I fear that we have misrepresented God for long. We condemn those who drink(where does scripture condemn drinking, not drunkenness?), those who do not tithe, those who eat blood(this was meant for Jews as all blood from sheep and cows was meant for sacrifice and atonement of sins and thus considered holy- Jesus shed his blood for us thus we no longer need any such rules!) It is OK to tithe so long as it is for the right reasons. The motive could be wrong (1 Cor 13:3)
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 7/16/2011 Posts: 59
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Giving includes tithing ,offering etc.
Tithing predates the Law of Moses,as Abraham gave 10% of his gain to Melchizedek the High priest.Consequently,it should be followed in the days of grace.
10% should be viewed like an acknowledgement note, indicating one has received the 100% intact.
Remember ,Christ praised the woman who gave the two coins ,the only thing she had,simply because she gave from the heart.
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