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Bashir's reprisals?
Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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A state very much weakened by tribalism trying to flex a muscle lol! I listened to that judge and forgave him. He has esteem issues, and from his mouth, he made the ruling in a vacuum without any regard to anything but written rules. I would like him to convict just a few kenyan bigshots with the same attitude who have wrecked havoc within our borders-drugdealers, fraudsters... that will be the only time I shall beleive in this useless populist judiciary. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/17/2008 Posts: 1,234
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Sigiriri wrote:guys, for me this case is very, very simple. Kenyans went to court with a valid case. The judge looked at this form all angles and was guided by the laws of the land including our new constitution. At the point of the case going to court, the AG should have started to throw in strategy at this point. Maybe arranging to meet with the petitioner etc because truth be told - the case was basically an open and shut matter when it comes to the legalities.
The question now is - do we Kenyans suspend our laws on this one or do we support our judiciary now that this is upheld? I chose to stand with the judiciary. There is nothing open and shut about this case. And you should know that what the court of appeal refused to grant was a stay order. The main appeal is yet to be heard on the merits. I have no doubt that if the appeal is argued by a competent lawyer well versed and trained ininternational law it would succeed. Immunity of a sitting head of state is still a cardinal principle of international law and even Article 98 of the ICC - Rome Statute acknowledges this. And before you start throwing stones at me I am in no way making a judgement as to whether or not Bashir is guilty of crimes against humanity - all am saying is that Kenya would breach the international law cardinal principle of head of state immunity if it arrested him while he is still in office. Article 98 of the Rome Statute 1. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international law with respect to the State or diplomatic immunity of a person or property of a third State, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of that third State for the waiver of the immunity. 2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/26/2008 Posts: 319
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Thanks @Mpenzi good information.
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/7/2007 Posts: 838
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Try as he might,Bashir will just be inviting more trouble when he bans KQ from overflying Sudan. It is a member of ICAO and is governed by its statute. WHO DARES WINS
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Mpenzi wrote:
Article 98 of the Rome Statute
1. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international law with respect to the State or diplomatic immunity of a person or property of a third State, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of that third State for the waiver of the immunity.
2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender.
Thanks  Does this mean that ICC has to first apply for waiver of immunity? Now this is much clearer. Githu doesn't even need a good lawyer!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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Mpenzi wrote:Sigiriri wrote:guys, for me this case is very, very simple. Kenyans went to court with a valid case. The judge looked at this form all angles and was guided by the laws of the land including our new constitution. At the point of the case going to court, the AG should have started to throw in strategy at this point. Maybe arranging to meet with the petitioner etc because truth be told - the case was basically an open and shut matter when it comes to the legalities.
The question now is - do we Kenyans suspend our laws on this one or do we support our judiciary now that this is upheld? I chose to stand with the judiciary. There is nothing open and shut about this case. And you should know that what the court of appeal refused to grant was a stay order. The main appeal is yet to be heard on the merits. I have no doubt that if the appeal is argued by a competent lawyer well versed and trained ininternational law it would succeed. Immunity of a sitting head of state is still a cardinal principle of international law and even Article 98 of the ICC - Rome Statute acknowledges this. And before you start throwing stones at me I am in no way making a judgement as to whether or not Bashir is guilty of crimes against humanity - all am saying is that Kenya would breach the international law cardinal principle of head of state immunity if it arrested him while he is still in office.Article 98 of the Rome Statute 1. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international law with respect to the State or diplomatic immunity of a person or property of a third State, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of that third State for the waiver of the immunity. 2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender. I understand English could be very difficult to understand and to use. In those paragraphs is a 6 letter word. This word is 'Unless'. 'Unless' has been used both as a preposition and a conjunction. This word means a lot. It is a heavy word. It is certainly not misplaced. It is the pivot on which the two sides swing. If applied, it will change and ruin everything, including 'immunity'. Look, even Lolest is clapping. And I thought that 'immunity' for a head of state is a 'cardinal' application within his / her country. Did it also become international? But look, the 'unless' is already cancelling it. How can it be breached if it is also allowed?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Mpenzi wrote:
Article 98 of the Rome Statute
2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender.
My understanding is the ICC must negotiate with Kenya so that Kenya can ignore her international obligations and arrest Bashir.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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Lolest! wrote:Mpenzi wrote:
Article 98 of the Rome Statute
2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender.
My understanding is the ICC must negotiate with Kenya so that Kenya can ignore her international obligations and arrest Bashir. Ohhhh Lolest, you are cute in your simplicity. Almost like a barbie doll. You want Kenya to ignore its international obligations? Far from it, quite the opposite. Kenya will honor and uphold its international obligations. If the custodians of the law in Kenya have ruled and declined to rescind that A is to be done, e.g. Kenya has to cooperate with the court e.g. Bashir is to be arrested if he sets foot in Kenya and handed over, then the 'unless' part has basically been executed. The remaining part will be a matter of formality e.g. arranging transportation etc. Kenya can now honour its international obligations. See? You thought it was going to Naivasha or Malindi for a retreat to negotiate as in 'to negotiate'? See why I say you are cute? You kinda get things up side down but in an innocent likeable way.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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YesuWangu wrote:Mpenzi wrote:Sigiriri wrote:guys, for me this case is very, very simple. Kenyans went to court with a valid case. The judge looked at this form all angles and was guided by the laws of the land including our new constitution. At the point of the case going to court, the AG should have started to throw in strategy at this point. Maybe arranging to meet with the petitioner etc because truth be told - the case was basically an open and shut matter when it comes to the legalities.
The question now is - do we Kenyans suspend our laws on this one or do we support our judiciary now that this is upheld? I chose to stand with the judiciary. There is nothing open and shut about this case. And you should know that what the court of appeal refused to grant was a stay order. The main appeal is yet to be heard on the merits. I have no doubt that if the appeal is argued by a competent lawyer well versed and trained ininternational law it would succeed. Immunity of a sitting head of state is still a cardinal principle of international law and even Article 98 of the ICC - Rome Statute acknowledges this. And before you start throwing stones at me I am in no way making a judgement as to whether or not Bashir is guilty of crimes against humanity - all am saying is that Kenya would breach the international law cardinal principle of head of state immunity if it arrested him while he is still in office.Article 98 of the Rome Statute 1. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international law with respect to the State or diplomatic immunity of a person or property of a third State, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of that third State for the waiver of the immunity. 2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender. I understand English could be very difficult to understand and to use. In those paragraphs is a 6 letter word. This word is 'Unless'. 'Unless' has been used both as a preposition and a conjunction. This word means a lot. It is a heavy word. It is certainly not misplaced. It is the pivot on which the two sides swing. If applied, it will change and ruin everything, including 'immunity'. Look, even Lolest is clapping. And I thought that 'immunity' for a head of state is a 'cardinal' application within his / her country. Did it also become international? But look, the 'unless' is already cancelling it. How can it be breached if it is also allowed? Wewe wacha kudanganya watu by playing with words. It reads as it is, simple. Stop pretending that its hard to understand the statement so that it suits the meaning you want it to acquire. Umezoea sana! The paragraph means..... that the Court (ICC) may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested state (Kenya) to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant (Diplomatic immunity) to which the sending State (Sudan)is required to surrender a person of that state to the court (ICC), UNLESS the court (ICC) can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State (Sudan) for the giving of consent for the surrender. So unless you are saying Sudan has given Kenya consent, wacha kutumia maneno mingi kuficha uongo
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 8/11/2010 Posts: 1,588
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Sigh.
Ok. I will stay calm, hold my peace walk away and not argue with him as he wants to pick a fight with me and let him have the last word if he so wants to.
It will reflect badly on me if people do not notice the difference.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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YesuWangu wrote:Lolest! wrote:Mpenzi wrote:
Article 98 of the Rome Statute
2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender.
My understanding is the ICC must negotiate with Kenya so that Kenya can ignore her international obligations and arrest Bashir. Ohhhh Lolest, you are cute in your simplicity. Almost like a barbie doll. You want Kenya to ignore its international obligations? Far from it, quite the opposite. Kenya will honor and uphold its international obligations. If the custodians of the law in Kenya have ruled and declined to rescind that A is to be done, e.g. Kenya has to cooperate with the court e.g. Bashir is to be arrested if he sets foot in Kenya and handed over, then the 'unless' part has basically been executed. The remaining part will be a matter of formality e.g. arranging transportation etc. Kenya can now honour its international obligations. See? You thought it was going to Naivasha or Malindi for a retreat to negotiate as in 'to negotiate'? See why I say you are cute? You kinda get things up side down but in an innocent likeable way. uko na matusi mingi sana Bwana YWiper  ...let me ignore for now. What do you think of the AU resolution against the arrest of Bashir by AU member states? Is this not an international obligation? Mr. Genius, which part of the Rome treaty would Kenya be violating if it doesn't arrest Bashir? Mpenzi quoted a section that gave me info, mind giving your sources apart from your interpretation?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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and don't forget Mr. YWiper that there are rules of diplomatic immunity too!! Re-read @ mpenzi's post and take time before replying!!!
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Rank: Elder Joined: 10/18/2008 Posts: 3,434 Location: Kerugoya
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@YesuWangu, you have such a delightful mastery of words that warms my heart on cool, slow afternoon. Cool.
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 10/17/2008 Posts: 1,234
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Kratos wrote:YesuWangu wrote:Mpenzi wrote:Sigiriri wrote:guys, for me this case is very, very simple. Kenyans went to court with a valid case. The judge looked at this form all angles and was guided by the laws of the land including our new constitution. At the point of the case going to court, the AG should have started to throw in strategy at this point. Maybe arranging to meet with the petitioner etc because truth be told - the case was basically an open and shut matter when it comes to the legalities.
The question now is - do we Kenyans suspend our laws on this one or do we support our judiciary now that this is upheld? I chose to stand with the judiciary. There is nothing open and shut about this case. And you should know that what the court of appeal refused to grant was a stay order. The main appeal is yet to be heard on the merits. I have no doubt that if the appeal is argued by a competent lawyer well versed and trained ininternational law it would succeed. Immunity of a sitting head of state is still a cardinal principle of international law and even Article 98 of the ICC - Rome Statute acknowledges this. And before you start throwing stones at me I am in no way making a judgement as to whether or not Bashir is guilty of crimes against humanity - all am saying is that Kenya would breach the international law cardinal principle of head of state immunity if it arrested him while he is still in office.Article 98 of the Rome Statute 1. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender or assistance which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international law with respect to the State or diplomatic immunity of a person or property of a third State, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of that third State for the waiver of the immunity. 2. The Court may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested State to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant to which the consent of a sending State is required to surrender a person of that State to the Court, unless the Court can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State for the giving of consent for the surrender. I understand English could be very difficult to understand and to use. In those paragraphs is a 6 letter word. This word is 'Unless'. 'Unless' has been used both as a preposition and a conjunction. This word means a lot. It is a heavy word. It is certainly not misplaced. It is the pivot on which the two sides swing. If applied, it will change and ruin everything, including 'immunity'. Look, even Lolest is clapping. And I thought that 'immunity' for a head of state is a 'cardinal' application within his / her country. Did it also become international? But look, the 'unless' is already cancelling it. How can it be breached if it is also allowed? Wewe wacha kudanganya watu by playing with words. It reads as it is, simple. Stop pretending that its hard to understand the statement so that it suits the meaning you want it to acquire. Umezoea sana! The paragraph means..... that the Court (ICC) may not proceed with a request for surrender which would require the requested state (Kenya) to act inconsistently with its obligations under international agreements pursuant (Diplomatic immunity) to which the sending State (Sudan)is required to surrender a person of that state to the court (ICC), UNLESS the court (ICC) can first obtain the cooperation of the sending State (Sudan) for the giving of consent for the surrender. So unless you are saying Sudan has given Kenya consent, wacha kutumia maneno mingi kuficha uongo Thanks Kratos for pointing out what is the clear statement of the law. The words in Article 98(1) "third state" can only refer to Sudan which words some people want to ignore so as to achieve their predetermined interpretation of the provision.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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So many wazuans better than one Justice Ombija!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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McReggae wrote:So many wazuans better than one Justice Ombija!!!! Just because he is a judge it doesn't make him a monopoly of knowledge or even a genius. He is just another human being. Asikutie wasi wasi sana na title yake such that everything he says or rules is the absolute truth or is perfect.
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Kratos wrote:McReggae wrote:So many wazuans better than one Justice Ombija!!!! Just because he is a judge it doesn't make him a monopoly of knowledge or even a genius. He is just another human being. Asikutie wasi wasi sana na title yake such that everything he says or rules is the absolute truth or is perfect. I wish I could believe judge/lawyer kratos...sorry!!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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McReggae wrote:Kratos wrote:McReggae wrote:So many wazuans better than one Justice Ombija!!!! Just because he is a judge it doesn't make him a monopoly of knowledge or even a genius. He is just another human being. Asikutie wasi wasi sana na title yake such that everything he says or rules is the absolute truth or is perfect. I wish I could believe judge/lawyer kratos...sorry!!!! I believe that's why we get an education, so that we can think for ourselves and not take in everything as gospel truth. Am sorry too you don't believe though there is nothing there to believe. Regards, Judge/Lawyer/(add anymore you may wish   ) Kratos
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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Kratos wrote:McReggae wrote:Kratos wrote:McReggae wrote:So many wazuans better than one Justice Ombija!!!! Just because he is a judge it doesn't make him a monopoly of knowledge or even a genius. He is just another human being. Asikutie wasi wasi sana na title yake such that everything he says or rules is the absolute truth or is perfect. I wish I could believe judge/lawyer kratos...sorry!!!! I believe that's why we get an education, so that we can think for ourselves and not take in everything as gospel truth. Am sorry too you don't believe though there is nothing there to believe. Regards, Judge/Lawyer/(add anymore you may wish ) Kratos and merry xmass justice!!! ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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