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Bashir's reprisals?
Rank: Member Joined: 9/23/2011 Posts: 175 Location: Nairobi
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Kratos wrote: I am not in anyway a supporter of Bashir but I believe we need to set our priorities right. A man who has had his plot demolished at Syokimau will not suddenly be inspired by the Justice system if we were to arrest Bashir in his quest for justice. Have we finished with all the "petty" cases we have at the law courts such that we devote time to judgements that are irrelevant to the common mwananchi? Lets stop being pretentious and thinking that the world revolves around Kenya, it does not! bro, the point u are missing is that we really want 'seperation of powers' and respect of the law adhered to. The syokimau demolitions were an Executive decision made due security concerns. The land was grabbed yes, but the Government was part and parcel of the mess that happened in syokimau. When a judge issued an order to stop the demolitions temporarily so as the case could be heard and maybe resolved, the government decided to take advantage of a technical hitch in the court order and rubbish the judge's order. Apparently the order was served to the wrong people(KAA) and the internal security guys and whoever else they work in cohort with, went on with the demolitions citing that they haven't received the court order though they knew of it's existence. So how is the judiciary to blame?
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/21/2009 Posts: 573
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madammary wrote:Kratos wrote:josiah33 wrote:YesuWangu wrote:Kratos wrote:All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone. What we gain? Lets see.....um..... we gain by rushing to court and solving things in court. Remember some years back people of high morality were telling others of low morality 'Go to court'? Now they themselves don't want anything the court has decided. Talk of hypocrites! We gain the rule of law, especially when moments of high emotions is around the corner next year. Maybe that is too minute to be mentioned? What has made people now to change that they don't want things to go to court? Have they replaced the speck in their eyes with the log that they removed from their neighbors eyes? Boss, you've said it all. Let's start respecting the constitution and upholding the rule of law if we want to become a better kenya. Facts 1. Bashir is a popularly elected president of Sudan. (Unless someone has facts to the contrary) 2. Sudan is not a signatory of the ICC (We cant force them) 3. The Government of Kenya is not an enforcing arm of the ICC.(How many ICC member States have issued arrest warrants for him) I am not in anyway a supporter of Bashir but I believe we need to set our priorities right. A man who has had his plot demolished at Syokimau will not suddenly be inspired by the Justice system if we were to arrest Bashir in his quest for justice. Have we finished with all the "petty" cases we have at the law courts such that we devote time to judgements that are irrelevant to the common mwananchi? Lets stop being pretentious and thinking that the world revolves around Kenya, it does not! FACTS: 1.He might be popularly elected but that's still in doubt since there were massive opposition boycotts and allegations of fraud. He had said he will not seek re-election sometimes back seeing the revolts that were happening in the Arab world meaning he was beginning to doubt his popularity. 2.We are not forcing anything on Sudan and we are not telling them to arrest their own president. 3.Kenya is obliged to arrest Al Bashir if he sets foot in kenya since they agreed to be part and parcel of the Rome Statute. Bashir has travelled to a few countries since the warrants, some trips being cancelled the last minute after the hosts realised it would hurt there other agendas. Some presidents threatened to boycott some function if Al Bashir was present and he had had to reroute on a trip to china after his plane was refused passage over some country's airspace. As you can see governments are scared of him and he has not had the occassion to visit a country that is willing to arrest him or one that doesn't want anything to do with him. Uganda and Rwanda have declared they would arrest him if he sets foot in their countries. With the way things are going,seems someone gave a golden opportunity to the west.They wanted and i believe still want Sudan and many other African countries to go the Libyan,Algerian and most importantly Egypt way.However Egypt way failed in Sudan when the arrest warrant was issued.The Wset had hoped Sudanese would riot and protest until Bashir get arrested.These guys after being frustrated retreated to their best strategy (lie in waiting for the best opportunity).Thus i ma not be in the know how this case was initiated and by who in Kenya but that ruling gave them the impetus.We are at war and this is not the best time to engage in other countries affairs and worse still not while our Doctors are on strike.Don,t think its time for the government to act carelessly.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 6/17/2008 Posts: 23,365 Location: Nairobi
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The kenyan govt reaction vis a vis the kenyan case at the ICC.....what say you??? ..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/23/2011 Posts: 175 Location: Nairobi
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mnjoro wrote:madammary wrote:Kratos wrote:josiah33 wrote:YesuWangu wrote:Kratos wrote:All these posts later and the proponents cannot say what we are gaining by the arrest warrant. Some Kenyans are such hypocrites! They want to take the high moral ground as if Kenya is any better than Sudan. Most people here don't even know how the war there came about. Before we remove the speck in our neighbours eye shouldn't we first remove the log in ours? This self importance Kenyans have will lead us no where. We do not live in an ideal world and the sooner we get used to it the better for everyone. What we gain? Lets see.....um..... we gain by rushing to court and solving things in court. Remember some years back people of high morality were telling others of low morality 'Go to court'? Now they themselves don't want anything the court has decided. Talk of hypocrites! We gain the rule of law, especially when moments of high emotions is around the corner next year. Maybe that is too minute to be mentioned? What has made people now to change that they don't want things to go to court? Have they replaced the speck in their eyes with the log that they removed from their neighbors eyes? Boss, you've said it all. Let's start respecting the constitution and upholding the rule of law if we want to become a better kenya. Facts 1. Bashir is a popularly elected president of Sudan. (Unless someone has facts to the contrary) 2. Sudan is not a signatory of the ICC (We cant force them) 3. The Government of Kenya is not an enforcing arm of the ICC.(How many ICC member States have issued arrest warrants for him) I am not in anyway a supporter of Bashir but I believe we need to set our priorities right. A man who has had his plot demolished at Syokimau will not suddenly be inspired by the Justice system if we were to arrest Bashir in his quest for justice. Have we finished with all the "petty" cases we have at the law courts such that we devote time to judgements that are irrelevant to the common mwananchi? Lets stop being pretentious and thinking that the world revolves around Kenya, it does not! FACTS: 1.He might be popularly elected but that's still in doubt since there were massive opposition boycotts and allegations of fraud. He had said he will not seek re-election sometimes back seeing the revolts that were happening in the Arab world meaning he was beginning to doubt his popularity. 2.We are not forcing anything on Sudan and we are not telling them to arrest their own president. 3.Kenya is obliged to arrest Al Bashir if he sets foot in kenya since they agreed to be part and parcel of the Rome Statute. Bashir has travelled to a few countries since the warrants, some trips being cancelled the last minute after the hosts realised it would hurt there other agendas. Some presidents threatened to boycott some function if Al Bashir was present and he had had to reroute on a trip to china after his plane was refused passage over some country's airspace. As you can see governments are scared of him and he has not had the occassion to visit a country that is willing to arrest him or one that doesn't want anything to do with him. Uganda and Rwanda have declared they would arrest him if he sets foot in their countries. With the way things are going,seems someone gave a golden opportunity to the west.They wanted and i believe still want Sudan and many other African countries to go the Libyan,Algerian and most importantly Egypt way.However Egypt way failed in Sudan when the arrest warrant was issued.The Wset had hoped Sudanese would riot and protest until Bashir get arrested.These guys after being frustrated retreated to their best strategy (lie in waiting for the best opportunity).Thus i ma not be in the know how this case was initiated and by who in Kenya but that ruling gave them the impetus.We are at war and this is not the best time to engage in other countries affairs and worse still not while our Doctors are on strike.Don,t think its time for the government to act carelessly. the kenyan government has already acted carelessly by trying to appease Al Bashir.
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Rank: Member Joined: 9/23/2011 Posts: 175 Location: Nairobi
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McReggae wrote:The kenyan govt reaction vis a vis the kenyan case at the ICC.....what say you??? what i can say of the kenyan government with regard to the ICC is that it doesn't either know what it wants or they were ratifying ICC to please someone and hoped that they would never have to deal with this damn ICC thing.
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Rank: Member Joined: 2/21/2009 Posts: 573
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[quote=madammary]
When it comes to who stands to loose most,i don,t think the govt is careless.Think on the effects the no flying- zone and the other embargos would have on freight rates etc.In return would ICC lift charges on our suspects?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/20/2007 Posts: 4,432
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misguided africanism. question is, did this "soveign" Bashir fellow allow the raping of women and killing of human beings? Ati African nationalism, my foot! Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 12/9/2009 Posts: 6,592 Location: Nairobi
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I think this is a great moment and test for Kenya. If the Executive does not interfere with the Judiciary on this matter and we already know the CJ's position - then we sit would be a great plus fro this nation if Bashir cuts ties with Kenya. Kenyans faith with in the Judiciary will be renewed. Question is, do we really need Bashir that badly? I don't think so.
BBI will solve it :)
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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mnjoro wrote:[quote=madammary]
When it comes to who stands to loose most,i don,t think the govt is careless.Think on the effects the no flying- zone and the other embargos would have on freight rates etc.In return would ICC lift charges on our suspects? i doubt the judge had the intention of making it easy for the ocampo six, if anyone wants to make it easy for the ocampo six then it's some people in government. Let Al Bashir carry out his threats and become more alone. Let him gravitate towards Eritrea and support Al Shabaab and the international community and ICC would have more reason to make him pay for his crimes against humanity. Who knows, if kenya hadn't gone to plead with him, he would have been turned into a fugitive like Osama Bin Laden. The only thing that worries me is the Sudan's Comprehensive Peace Accord.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/2/2007 Posts: 8,776 Location: Cameroon
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Parliament faults the executive for not preventing the ruling by the Judiciary. Interesting Government we have! A pure comedy to be proud of. TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 9/19/2011 Posts: 1,694
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josiah33 wrote:mnjoro wrote:[quote=madammary]
When it comes to who stands to loose most,i don,t think the govt is careless.Think on the effects the no flying- zone and the other embargos would have on freight rates etc.In return would ICC lift charges on our suspects? i doubt the judge had the intention of making it easy for the ocampo six, if anyone wants to make it easy for the ocampo six then it's some people in government. Let Al Bashir carry out his threats and become more alone. Let him gravitate towards Eritrea and support Al Shabaab and the international community and ICC would have more reason to make him pay for his crimes against humanity. Who knows, if kenya hadn't gone to plead with him, he would have been turned into a fugitive like Osama Bin Laden. The only thing that worries me is the Sudan's Comprehensive Peace Accord.  i think you watch too many movies
“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.” ― Walter C. Langer
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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Kratos wrote:josiah33 wrote:mnjoro wrote:[quote=madammary]
When it comes to who stands to loose most,i don,t think the govt is careless.Think on the effects the no flying- zone and the other embargos would have on freight rates etc.In return would ICC lift charges on our suspects? i doubt the judge had the intention of making it easy for the ocampo six, if anyone wants to make it easy for the ocampo six then it's some people in government. Let Al Bashir carry out his threats and become more alone. Let him gravitate towards Eritrea and support Al Shabaab and the international community and ICC would have more reason to make him pay for his crimes against humanity. Who knows, if kenya hadn't gone to plead with him, he would have been turned into a fugitive like Osama Bin Laden. The only thing that worries me is the Sudan's Comprehensive Peace Accord. i think you watch too many movies well i enjoy stuff like 24 featuring keifer sunderland etc.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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simonkabz wrote:Parliament faults the executive for not preventing the ruling by the Judiciary. Interesting Government we have! A pure comedy to be proud of. hmmmh! one arm of Government telling another arm of Government to muzzle another arm of Government.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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It is curious that President Bashir has reacted so violently to Kenya while he has been largely silent on other countries that have indicated they may enforce the ICC arrest warrant. According to the ICJ-Kenya, which filed the case, the Kenyan court action is not unprecedented. The South African Litigation Centre made a similar application in May 2009 following word that President Bashir planned to attend the inauguration of President Jacob Zuma. President Bashir cancelled the trip, and Sudan did not sever diplomatic links or issue any threats against South Africa. And the following year, the Ugandan Foreign Minister Henry Okello Oryem announced that President Bashir might be arrested if he made a planned visit to Uganda. President Yoweri Museveni renounced the statement and apologised to President Bashir, who however put off any trip to Kampala. But, again, he did not expel the Ugandan ambassador or issue any threats of sanctions. http://www.nation.co.ke/...st/-/mg5o52/-/index.html
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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Court of appeal rejects AGs appeal
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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Lolest! wrote:It is curious that President Bashir has reacted so violently to Kenya while he has been largely silent on other countries that have indicated they may enforce the ICC arrest warrant. According to the ICJ-Kenya, which filed the case, the Kenyan court action is not unprecedented. The South African Litigation Centre made a similar application in May 2009 following word that President Bashir planned to attend the inauguration of President Jacob Zuma. President Bashir cancelled the trip, and Sudan did not sever diplomatic links or issue any threats against South Africa. And the following year, the Ugandan Foreign Minister Henry Okello Oryem announced that President Bashir might be arrested if he made a planned visit to Uganda. President Yoweri Museveni renounced the statement and apologised to President Bashir, who however put off any trip to Kampala. But, again, he did not expel the Ugandan ambassador or issue any threats of sanctions. http://www.nation.co.ke/...t/-/mg5o52/-/index.html kwani huyu Bashir hupatia hawa wakora wa kenya nini?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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Lolest! wrote:Court of appeal rejects AGs appeal what is wentangula and company going to do now?
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Rank: Elder Joined: 3/18/2011 Posts: 12,069 Location: Kianjokoma
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josiah33 wrote:Lolest! wrote:Court of appeal rejects AGs appeal what is wentangula and company going to do now? BTW this is not final, the court just rejected the AGs plea to have a stay in execution of the earlier order. The main case is still on.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 1/27/2011 Posts: 1,777
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Lolest! wrote:josiah33 wrote:Lolest! wrote:Court of appeal rejects AGs appeal what is wentangula and company going to do now? BTW this is not final, the court just rejected the AGs plea to have a stay in execution of the earlier order. The main case is still on. but there was the Bashir's two weeks ultimatum and this case seems to be dragging on for long.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/26/2008 Posts: 319
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guys, for me this case is very, very simple. Kenyans went to court with a valid case. The judge looked at this form all angles and was guided by the laws of the land including our new constitution. At the point of the case going to court, the AG should have started to throw in strategy at this point. Maybe arranging to meet with the petitioner etc because truth be told - the case was basically an open and shut matter when it comes to the legalities.
The question now is - do we Kenyans suspend our laws on this one or do we support our judiciary now that this is upheld? I chose to stand with the judiciary.
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