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Doctors strike
Sober
#61 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 6:41:02 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/27/2007
Posts: 3,604
From my understanding a Clinical Officer is a medical doctor but with diploma qualification. They can do the same thing as doctors and as long as they are on duty there shouldnt be a cause of alarm.
Otherwise i would like to thank the entire support staff in the health sector for the sacrifice they make in heelping us.
African parents don't know how to say sorry.. the closest you will get to a sorry is a 'have you eaten'
sumuni
#62 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 8:10:02 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/24/2007
Posts: 111
Location: Afrique
Sober wrote:
From my understanding a Clinical Officer is a medical doctor but with diploma qualification. They can do the same thing as doctors and as long as they are on duty there shouldnt be a cause of alarm.
Otherwise i would like to thank the entire support staff in the health sector for the sacrifice they make in heelping us.

I beg to differ with you as your understanding is a bit flawed. A clinical officer's training does not delve into the subtle intricacies of disease aetiology and pathology. it merely serves to empower them to diagnose common illnesses with overt symptoms. Hence the reason why one course takes 3 years and the other 5 years. the CO course is a course that was designed for a few SSA countries to address the acute shortage of doctors in those countries. They do have their role in primary health care but will never be replacements for medical doctors. Same applies for dental and pharmacy diploma holders.
Einstein once said a little knowledge is a dangerous thing....You do not want someone treating you for ulcers just because you've been having this pain in your upper abdomen yet it could be a sign of a more serious underlying malaise. so, there's cause for worry and serious dialogue.
It is a curious fact that of all the illusions that beset mankind, none is quite as curious as that tendency to suppose that we are mentally and morally superior to those who differ from us in opinion.
MJ
#63 Posted : Monday, December 05, 2011 9:16:21 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/20/2007
Posts: 47
Sober wrote:
From my understanding a Clinical Officer is a medical doctor but with diploma qualification. They can do the same thing as doctors and as long as they are on duty there shouldnt be a cause of alarm.
Otherwise i would like to thank the entire support staff in the health sector for the sacrifice they make in heelping us.


Truth is, a clinical officer is not a medical doctor. He is a clinician yes, but with limited training and skills, for example-they cannot be deployed for any surgical procedures. it's like equating a technician to an engineer!

Dash
#64 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 6:57:12 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/24/2010
Posts: 677
Location: Nairobi
Day two? Just seen on facebook the way the docs are mulikaing mwizi on the docs who are going against the rest and continuing practicing. So they send word to all the other health centers around the area to transfer all the patients to the practicing doctor to overwhelm him with workLaughing out loudly
jamplu
#65 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 7:22:36 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 3/25/2010
Posts: 939
Location: Nai
Doctors deserve better pay but they also need to guarantee Kenyans they will dedicate all their time in their Public hospital stations if their demands are met.
tony stark
#66 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 9:10:04 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
jamplu wrote:
Doctors deserve better pay but they also need to guarantee Kenyans they will dedicate all their time in their Public hospital stations if their demands are met.


What you are seeing is actually a mini civil war between the doctors. You have a small group of established consultants who are against the system changing and maintaining the status quo. I will explain the status quo later. On the other side of this war is the young doctors and all doctors(young and old) disenfranchised by the system and this doesn't involve pay only.
The status quo is work for the Government for several years, after 3-5 years being paid peanuts in hard to reach areas with professional and personal isolation you can qualify for a government sponsorship.
You do you master in surgery, paediatrics, medicine etc. then you work for the government. This can be anywhere from the cities to major towns rarely the hard to reach areas. Once you get registered as a consultant you finally get back to a big town or city and establish your clinic. You now have the opportunity to make cash. Majority the "private" doctors middle class nairobians and kenyans in general see are masquerading GoK doctors. But do you blame him he has been waiting for 5 years med school+4-5 years as a medical officer+ 4 years post med school + 4-5 years master + 4 years as a consultant. 20-25 years after finishing form 4 is when he starts earning 300K- 500K when you are in your mid to late 40s.
PS: to get here you have been using loans to fund your postgraduate studies and living and life in general. Your up to your neck in debt and people are surprised when a Doctor ask for 400K for an operation. Its wrong to charge exorbitantly and isn't it surprising that most doctors can't even afford to get treated in some of the hospitals they work eg nairobi hospital and aga khan at health insurance is out of reach.

What the strike is really advocating for is a different way of doing things. First improve services in the shags and doctors wont mind working and living there infact majority of people would love to work and live outside Nairobi. Introduce new ways training that does not involve coming to KNH for 5 year and probably train from the districts. If that cant happen then pay the doctors who work in KNH doing their master. 80% of this student work for 0 shillings per month and pay fees to UON. Please note this is not a full time job it is a life draining job where you work day and night and read in the remaining time.

If services and training improve, the chances of a doctor settling in Kitale or even Lodwar for that matter increase.

If the salary improves you wont have to masquerade in private practice at all PS:Moonlighting is also another life draining activity that doctors have to go through to make ends meet. and private hospitals also exploit the same doctors cause they know the doctors don't have an alternative.

Therefore salaries are not the only thing doctors are fighting for and it is not the key to the problem.

maligumu
#67 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 12:58:32 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/22/2010
Posts: 510
Location: De egg
Where is Minister for Medical Services .
Too quiet !
Peace be with you
bwenyenye
#68 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:24:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
tony stark wrote:
jamplu wrote:
Doctors deserve better pay but they also need to guarantee Kenyans they will dedicate all their time in their Public hospital stations if their demands are met.


What you are seeing is actually a mini civil war between the doctors. You have a small group of established consultants who are against the system changing and maintaining the status quo. I will explain the status quo later. On the other side of this war is the young doctors and all doctors(young and old) disenfranchised by the system and this doesn't involve pay only.
The status quo is work for the Government for several years, after 3-5 years being paid peanuts in hard to reach areas with professional and personal isolation you can qualify for a government sponsorship.
You do you master in surgery, paediatrics, medicine etc. then you work for the government. This can be anywhere from the cities to major towns rarely the hard to reach areas. Once you get registered as a consultant you finally get back to a big town or city and establish your clinic. You now have the opportunity to make cash. Majority the "private" doctors middle class nairobians and kenyans in general see are masquerading GoK doctors. But do you blame him he has been waiting for 5 years med school+4-5 years as a medical officer+ 4 years post med school + 4-5 years master + 4 years as a consultant. 20-25 years after finishing form 4 is when he starts earning 300K- 500K when you are in your mid to late 40s.
PS: to get here you have been using loans to fund your postgraduate studies and living and life in general. Your up to your neck in debt and people are surprised when a Doctor ask for 400K for an operation. Its wrong to charge exorbitantly and isn't it surprising that most doctors can't even afford to get treated in some of the hospitals they work eg nairobi hospital and aga khan at health insurance is out of reach.

What the strike is really advocating for is a different way of doing things. First improve services in the shags and doctors wont mind working and living there infact majority of people would love to work and live outside Nairobi. Introduce new ways training that does not involve coming to KNH for 5 year and probably train from the districts. If that cant happen then pay the doctors who work in KNH doing their master. 80% of this student work for 0 shillings per month and pay fees to UON. Please note this is not a full time job it is a life draining job where you work day and night and read in the remaining time.

If services and training improve, the chances of a doctor settling in Kitale or even Lodwar for that matter increase.

If the salary improves you wont have to masquerade in private practice at all PS:Moonlighting is also another life draining activity that doctors have to go through to make ends meet. and private hospitals also exploit the same doctors cause they know the doctors don't have an alternative.

Therefore salaries are not the only thing doctors are fighting for and it is not the key to the problem.



Well put @Tony. I have always argued here that pay alone will not improve anything for the public. The facilities are what you guys should be striking for ( pay included).

Now, who is that lovely chic (Oops Doc!) I saw on TV at lunchtime..... I am not feeling very well, where does she work...Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause
I Think Therefore I Am
alma
#69 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:58:07 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
It all sounds so noble of the doctors, changing the "system". but lets be honest...morality and money don't usually go hand in hand.

Lets not have a strike and claim its for "the country". You want a pay rise and that's it. Hii ingine ya working 20 years to make 500k ni upus. I sell charcoal and will never make that money in 600 yrs.

So doctor's please. You have gone on strike for money.

As you do so, some people are dying. The gov't will use that against you and the strike will come to naught.

Do it better please....like all of you move to botswana or something like that. If you are that good, you don't need the kenyan gov't.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
McReggae
#70 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 3:06:41 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
alma wrote:
It all sounds so noble of the doctors, changing the "system". but lets be honest...morality and money don't usually go hand in hand.

Lets not have a strike and claim its for "the country". You want a pay rise and that's it. Hii ingine ya working 20 years to make 500k ni upus. I sell charcoal and will never make that money in 600 yrs.

So doctor's please. You have gone on strike for money. .


...so very true, today if their salary demands are met without a single facility improvement they would all run back to work!!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
tuvok
#71 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 3:11:40 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 5/2/2007
Posts: 536
Found this on Facebook (rather lengthy rant) covering why they are on strike :

https://www.facebook.com...strike/10150402911312582
bwenyenye
#72 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 3:13:11 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
bwenyenye wrote:


Now, who is that lovely chic (Oops Doc!) I saw on TV at lunchtime..... I am not feeling very well, where does she work...Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


Anyone? To me the strike ended when I saw her. The rest was no different from the teachers strike.
I Think Therefore I Am
Tebes
#73 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 3:29:29 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/26/2008
Posts: 2,097
McReggae wrote:
alma wrote:
It all sounds so noble of the doctors, changing the "system". but lets be honest...morality and money don't usually go hand in hand.

Lets not have a strike and claim its for "the country". You want a pay rise and that's it. Hii ingine ya working 20 years to make 500k ni upus. I sell charcoal and will never make that money in 600 yrs.

So doctor's please. You have gone on strike for money. .


...so very true, today if their salary demands are met without a single facility improvement they would all run back to work!!!!



I conquer with that. On the other hand some of them would like the status quo on that end since if the facilities are improved they will loose business (their clinics are direct beneficiaries of the poor facilities at the government hospotals.
"Never regret, if its good, its wonderful. If its bad, its experience."
jguru
#74 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 5:54:23 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 1,574
bwenyenye wrote:
bwenyenye wrote:


Now, who is that lovely chic (Oops Doc!) I saw on TV at lunchtime..... I am not feeling very well, where does she work...Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


Anyone? To me the strike ended when I saw her. The rest was no different from the teachers strike.


She is called Dr Wambui Waithaka. She is the National Treasurer for KMPDU.

See her here: http://www.nation.co.ke/.../-/9cjlytz/-/index.html

Utawesa kweli? smile

Set out to correct the world's wrongs and you will most certainly wind up adding to them.
jguru
#75 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 5:57:18 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/25/2007
Posts: 1,574
WAZUA ADMIN,

Merge this thread to this other one:

http://www.wazua.co.ke/f...spx?g=posts&t=16215

Thanks.
Set out to correct the world's wrongs and you will most certainly wind up adding to them.
Gordon Gekko
#76 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 7:43:24 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 3,760
Dr Wambui Waithaka. Is true or just a nasty rumour that she was fired today?

BTW, who remembers that Mean Machine rugby fan # 1 in them days called "Steel Pulse", a medic I understand ended up being a serious doctor in real life?

The famous MM song - God created the gentle breezes, that blows among the (can't recall the word that goes here), and lifts up the young girls dresses, (everything after here is not for a family website like wazua) smile
Mpenzi
#77 Posted : Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:50:57 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 10/17/2008
Posts: 1,234
Gordon Gekko wrote:
Dr Wambui Waithaka. Is true or just a nasty rumour that she was fired today?

BTW, who remembers that Mean Machine rugby fan # 1 in them days called "Steel Pulse", a medic I understand ended up being a serious doctor in real life?

The famous MM song - God created the gentle breezes, that blows among the (can't recall the word that goes here), and lifts up the young girls dresses, (everything after here is not for a family website like wazua) smile


He was also great leading cheering in the early Safari Sevens years. Quite a talent he has. What was his real name?
Gordon Gekko
#78 Posted : Wednesday, December 07, 2011 8:34:45 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/27/2008
Posts: 3,760
@Mpenzi, The first Safari Sevens were held in 1996. Steel Pulse was in college in the mid 80's so it is inconceivable that he was shouting his voice hoarse in the 90s.

BTW are you also aware the the leading brain surgeon, Dr Oluoch Olunya was also a die hard MM crowd rouser? Who remembers his deft moonwalks on the pitch during half times? @Mpenzi, Dr Oluoch was of the very early 80s era.
addidaskawembe
#79 Posted : Wednesday, December 07, 2011 9:07:02 AM
Rank: New-farer


Joined: 5/14/2010
Posts: 84
Location: Nairobi
Gordon Gekko wrote:
Dr Wambui Waithaka. Is true or just a nasty rumour that she was fired today?

BTW, who remembers that Mean Machine rugby fan # 1 in them days called "Steel Pulse", a medic I understand ended up being a serious doctor in real life?

The famous MM song - God created the gentle breezes, that blows among the (can't recall the word that goes here), and lifts up the young girls dresses, (everything after here is not for a family website like wazua) smile


@Gordon... The great 'Steel Pulse' real name is Dr. Allan Gohole met him few years ago, he was the MoH - Bungoma District.

I later met him in Nrb after he quit public service and was a HIV Advisor for Jhpiego-an affiliate of Johns Hopkins University

Still is a true rugby and football fan and ofcourse bull fighting
tony stark
#80 Posted : Wednesday, December 07, 2011 11:40:41 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
Tebes wrote:
McReggae wrote:
alma wrote:
It all sounds so noble of the doctors, changing the "system". but lets be honest...morality and money don't usually go hand in hand.

Lets not have a strike and claim its for "the country". You want a pay rise and that's it. Hii ingine ya working 20 years to make 500k ni upus. I sell charcoal and will never make that money in 600 yrs.

So doctor's please. You have gone on strike for money.
As you do so, some people are dying. The gov't will use that against you and the strike will come to naught.

Do it better please....like all of you move to botswana or something like that. If you are that good, you don't need the kenyan gov't.


...so very true, today if their salary demands are met without a single facility improvement they would all run back to work!!!!



I conquer with that. On the other hand some of them would like the status quo on that end since if the facilities are improved they will loose business (their clinics are direct beneficiaries of the poor facilities at the government hospotals.


I never refuted Doctors have gone on strike for money. But money alone will not sort out the problem more so for the Government employees. Lets say Govt only increases the money and never delivers on the promises to improve facilities what will happen is an exodus from govt to private hospitals which have to provide over and above what gover provides to get and retain staff. Ps note that your precious company insurance will also go up and your company profits will go down hand in hand.
Health insurance is not cheap.

The problem poor people face are a lot and health care services in kenya year in and year out decimate poor peoples savings. Imagine a father of 8 in homabay takes his wife to get treated for hypertension and she is admitted. The bill comes back a paltry 400sh per day for 4 days(1600) for hospital stay, drugs total up to 2000 shillings and since the hospital is under staffed the patients require unofficially of course a minder who get paid.

This guy has been saving for years to raise 5000K so that he can buy a new boda boda and hire it out but in one instance the guy has gone from soon to be business man to a pauper.

The government has taxed this guy since the medical drugs should be available and cheaper at government facilities, Nurses should suffice and this need for relative and minders in hospitals is nonsense since they should be working.

This is the nonsense that has to stop.Doctors are not morticians to oversee death and also we are not slave to work for free and peanuts.

This strike is definitely about money for doctors and the system.
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