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CBK MPC Meet!!!
GenghisCapitalLtd
#21 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:36:51 PM

Rank: Bona-fide


Joined: 11/2/2011
Posts: 191
Location: Nairobi
2012 wrote:
GenghisCapitalLtd wrote:
2012 wrote:
This Governor should have been fired a long time ago! Raising the CBR is not a sustainable solution, it will kill businesses and it's put hard working Kenyans with unsecured loans on a leash. I even thought they would increase duty on non-essential goods. I wonder whether the bank would blame you of you defaulted or refused to increase your repayments to the new rate.

Is there a banker in the house? Please explain to me why people who took loans at 12-16% before the CBR was adjusted are being affected?

Great question but the small print in all loan contracts read like the bank has the right to adjust the rate accordingly without prior notice to the client, or something like that!
The bank's hands are tied in this case.


Please explain. Assuming I took a loan at 12% in March, and my bank had borrowed from CBK, is bank repay the old loan at the new rate?

Answer to your question 2012 is a big yes. Banks will never absorb any costs so they passthrough any upwards adjustment to their client ASAP, wish I could say the same to a downward adjustment which is always very sticky.
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“Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren’t used to an environment where excellence is expected.” Steve Jobs,iGenius
Kausha
#22 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:38:49 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/8/2007
Posts: 808
The fault is the governor's 120% because he printed loads of Kshs last year and got clever by buying US $ from banks to inject liquidity in the market but resulted to playing with that liquidity in the repo market.

I believe he expected the liquidity would work miracles over night and spur growth of the economy. Unfortunately there are no economic policies supporting our lending model, people took the money and went to buy Plasma Tvs, cars, pay for MBAs and holidays.

Unfortunately Fuel went up and our wheat and maize stocks ran out. These require dollars to buy and suddenly the system was struggling for dollars since it sold them to CBK. The banking system started struggling for dollars. The economy hardly expands if the money lent is for consumption more so that which requires imports, therefore tax revenue hardly grew, CBK forgot to caution GK on its expenditure and off course we needed to import maize and wheat suddenly the extra USD CBK was stock piling was used up.

What I don't understand is if inflation is supply side driven, why raise rates, isn't it more punitive to do so because raising rates is meant to remove surplus liquidity from circulation and it assumes people have extra cash which will follow higher rates to the bank vaults. However with expensive food and energy, people hardly have money left after spending on the expensive food and energy. So which liquidity is Prof going after, the little the banks are about to lend or? Is he suggesting we save on eating, lighting our homes and walk to work so that we can bank the savings????

Either way they need to drop the rates to 9%. Already the Unions are pushing for extra wages while companies are not far commencing right sizings......
bwenyenye
#23 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:40:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
GenghisCapitalLtd wrote:
2012 wrote:
This Governor should have been fired a long time ago! Raising the CBR is not a sustainable solution, it will kill businesses and it's put hard working Kenyans with unsecured loans on a leash. I even thought they would increase duty on non-essential goods. I wonder whether the bank would blame you of you defaulted or refused to increase your repayments to the new rate.

Is there a banker in the house? Please explain to me why people who took loans at 12-16% before the CBR was adjusted are being affected?

Great question but the small print in all loan contracts read like the bank has the right to adjust the rate accordingly without prior notice to the client, or something like that!
The bank's hands are tied in this case.


The bigger issue is can those who were evaluated to pay a loan at 14% three years ago qualify to repay it at 24% today. I don't think so. Therefore, as I have said before, the banks are courting trouble for themselves by hiking existing loans. The default rates will sky rocket and the banks will have to attach capital to the bad loans.

@Genghis, you are not correct to say that the banks hands are tied to increase the rates because the CBR is raised. If you understood the banking balance sheet and consider the standard movement of funds, you would realize that they have loans @ <80% of deposits. They also have Core capital which should be paid up to shove up liquidity. The core business of banking is lending and we know how much deposits are paid for in this country.

Therefore, the MPC rate hike should not affect normal lending rates as it is Supposed to fund overnight lending for the clearing house not long term lending.

I Think Therefore I Am
'user'
#24 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:46:36 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/3/2010
Posts: 1,141
Location: Londokwe
any word from mpc.I'm almost suffocating :)

it feels like the olden times of price control when we waited for price of sugar to be read in the budget
2012 is here.Kenya is Ours.Be Part of The Peace Keeping Mission To Protect Our Motherland.Say No To Violence and Tribal Hatred .If you can read this,wewe ni mtu amesoma, usifikirie kama mtu hajaenda shule .Ni Hayo Tu
GenghisCapitalLtd
#25 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 3:51:32 PM

Rank: Bona-fide


Joined: 11/2/2011
Posts: 191
Location: Nairobi
'user' wrote:
any word from mpc.I'm almost suffocating :)

it feels like the olden times of price control when we waited for price of sugar to be read in the budget

Laughing out loudly Laughing out loudly
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“Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren’t used to an environment where excellence is expected.” Steve Jobs,iGenius
the deal
#26 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:39:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
Any loosening from MPC is nothing but suicide.
Mainat
#27 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:58:13 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
FinMin is where the blame lies as his actions dictate monetary policy...
Sehemu ndio nyumba
guru267
#28 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 5:07:22 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
the deal wrote:
Any loosening from MPC is nothing but suicide.


My friend sorry to say this but this is not Namibia..

The blunt truth is that Kenya is a third world state with a miniscule GDP and a very small ratio of financial flows to GDP..

In other words we are broke as hell and we have other more serious factors influencing the chaos in the economy more than the inferior factor of household demand as presented by Ndungu..

Demand side monetary economics will never solve any problems in this country as long as the above facts remain...
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
kizee1
#29 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 5:23:28 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 679
Location: nairobi
guru267 wrote:
the deal wrote:
Any loosening from MPC is nothing but suicide.


My friend sorry to say this but this is not Namibia..

The blunt truth is that Kenya is a third world state with a miniscule GDP and a very small ratio of financial flows to GDP..

In other words we are broke as hell and we have other more serious factors influencing the chaos in the economy more than the inferior factor of household demand as presented by Ndungu..

Demand side monetary economics will never solve any problems in this country as long as the above facts remain...

m3 to gdp stands at 46 percent wud u say thats miniscule? what are u a guru of again?
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic
#30 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 5:54:23 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/23/2010
Posts: 2,220
Location: Sundowner,Amboseli
Very interesting discussion and as always @ Kizee, kindly keep us posted on the new CBR(u've always done so in the past)
I still think a punitive rate for cheap Japanese cars, plasmas and what have u consumption loans needs to be in place!Like say 70% to keep Wanjiku away from those cheap cars!After all, she's used to a megarider and the bigger picture is that our fuel bill, which for now accounts for a third of the imports will come down.
And as Scubidu asked a few weeks ago in another thread, whats the big deal with USDKES at 100?
Exporters will smile, Sasini & WTK will pay me good divsLaughing out loudly and consumption imports by Wanjiku will be discouraged!
Let the Market forces operate Prof & may u be given powers to dictate things at Treasury!
@SufficientlyP
Mainat
#31 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 6:20:17 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Up 150bps to 18%.
Not clever, somebody will be paying 30% (30!) on their loan
Sehemu ndio nyumba
Scubidu
#32 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 7:12:15 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@mainat. I agree. It's premature to raise now unless they know something we don't and the house is still on fire (every dose needs time to take effect). This shock therapy is not psychologically healthy. At 18% it's neither here or there. Not even a real policy rate with inflation at 19%. It'll create uncertainty that the last policy is yet to take effect (especially when supply side inflation is largely expected to drop early next year and fx has corrected somewhat). I usually don't like a witch-hunt, but I can so smell IMF's hand in this.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Mainat
#33 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 7:19:47 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
@Scubidu-the patient asked for a local anaesthetic, but got a horse anaesthetic instead and is now heading to ICU
Sehemu ndio nyumba
the deal
#34 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:21:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
My reaction


Basically to get out of this trap they have to force a mini recession,they need to reboot the system,inflation has gone viral

Loose monetary policy has led to this crisis,goodos CBK for abandoning it, the economy needed to be cooled,a bubble would have been worse.
GGK
#35 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:52:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 608
Location: Ruiru
Sufficiently Philanga....thropic wrote:


I still think a punitive rate for cheap Japanese cars, plasmas and what have u consumption loans needs to be in place!Like say 70% to keep Wanjiku away from those cheap cars!After all, she's used to a megarider and the bigger picture is that our fuel bill, which for now accounts for a third of the imports will come down.


When we avail cash cheaply for folks to import furniture, it is equivalent to capital Capital flight. Somehow, this needs to stamped out.

But for the guys who borrow to finance production, GoK should ensure they can access credit at reasonable rates.
"..I am because we are. "― Ubuntu, Umtu,
kenmac
#36 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 8:58:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/26/2009
Posts: 1,793
Kausha wrote:
The fault is the governor's 120% because he printed loads of Kshs last year and got clever by buying US $ from banks to inject liquidity in the market but resulted to playing with that liquidity in the repo market.

I believe he expected the liquidity would work miracles over night and spur growth of the economy. Unfortunately there are no economic policies supporting our lending model, people took the money and went to buy Plasma Tvs, cars, pay for MBAs and holidays.

Unfortunately Fuel went up and our wheat and maize stocks ran out. These require dollars to buy and suddenly the system was struggling for dollars since it sold them to CBK. The banking system started struggling for dollars. The economy hardly expands if the money lent is for consumption more so that which requires imports, therefore tax revenue hardly grew, CBK forgot to caution GK on its expenditure and off course we needed to import maize and wheat suddenly the extra USD CBK was stock piling was used up.

What I don't understand is if inflation is supply side driven, why raise rates, isn't it more punitive to do so because raising rates is meant to remove surplus liquidity from circulation and it assumes people have extra cash which will follow higher rates to the bank vaults. However with expensive food and energy, people hardly have money left after spending on the expensive food and energy. So which liquidity is Prof going after, the little the banks are about to lend or? Is he suggesting we save on eating, lighting our homes and walk to work so that we can bank the savings????

Either way they need to drop the rates to 9%. Already the Unions are pushing for extra wages while companies are not far commencing right sizings......



interesting proposition
......Ecclesiastes
the deal
#37 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:27:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/25/2009
Posts: 4,534
Location: Windhoek/Nairobbery
When you see banks are expanding they're loan books by 30-50% you should know that your economy is in trouble.
guru267
#38 Posted : Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:39:06 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 1/21/2010
Posts: 6,675
Location: Nairobi
the deal wrote:
When you see banks are expanding they're loan books by 30-50% you should know that your economy is in trouble.


Totally Not true when you are coming from a very low base my friend like the way kenya is..
Mark 12:29
Deuteronomy 4:16
hisah
#39 Posted : Friday, December 02, 2011 12:55:52 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
@Mainat - well there you have the rate hike almost as per my 200bps expectation.

@deal - Volcker's script is in play. A mini recession has to forced by CBK.

@scubidu - IMF got the gun on it, pain central for a while. When you have weak fiscal policies, that's how you get fixed! Hope the lessons are learned. MoF needs a sober approach & skills, not politicians. Specialists fix things, politicians speak things...

Bank stocks bulls, good luck! NSE below 3000 is a reality and not what if...

The only things rallying are inflation rate, tbill rates, 2yr gok bond, KES fx strength via intervention & CBR... Money winter with CBK reminding banks who's boss!
$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
mwekez@ji
#40 Posted : Friday, December 02, 2011 8:22:21 AM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 5/31/2011
Posts: 5,121
hisah wrote:


Bank stocks bulls, good luck! NSE below 3000 is a reality and not what if...


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