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Ocampo loses case against suspect
'user'
#91 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:39:58 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 12/3/2010
Posts: 1,141
Location: Londokwe
Seeders wrote:
the cases will be confirmed but do not see a conviction of more than 1 person of the 6 after full trial. tone down expectations and deal with the matters that are still boiling under the surface waiting for the next trigger for even worse violence.


One conviction will still be good since it will serve as a warning and second thought trigger for anyone wishing to cause chaos.But I wish all the six get locked.

No one should ever think taking the life of an innocent woman , child or man can go unpunished.

whether it's the originator or the retaliator.
Lest you forget ,We still have IDPs , our distant brothers, sister mothers and fathers wallowing in the cold IDP camps.
2012 is here.Kenya is Ours.Be Part of The Peace Keeping Mission To Protect Our Motherland.Say No To Violence and Tribal Hatred .If you can read this,wewe ni mtu amesoma, usifikirie kama mtu hajaenda shule .Ni Hayo Tu
FundamentAli
#92 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 12:48:23 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 11/4/2008
Posts: 1,289
Location: Nairobi
Katee's evidence is very tricky. I think he brought matters to head. If he is believed then the prosecution has no case. The judges had to be tough on him because of this fact. It is not going to be an easy call for them either.
TAZ
#93 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:04:30 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/14/2007
Posts: 4,152
Its interesting how some of you think the DC was withholding information or contradicted himself because you already have a biased opinion of what actually happened (not that i'm any different).

Overally the burden of proof lies with the Prosecutor (Ocampo). From what we've witnessed at the ICC do you believe he's really given the ICC judges and Kenyans anything to justify why the charges involving the 6 should be confirmed. What we saw yesterday it was just a case of the prosecution trying to puncture the credibility of Muthaura's Witness....Its the DC's word against Ocampo and his team. What about the orders that Muthaura allegedly issued from state house......was that addressed?
alma
#94 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:21:24 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
TAZ wrote:


Overally the burden of proof lies with the Prosecutor (Ocampo).


This is the reason I wish I were a lawyer getting freebies.

Many a time Turufosa has stated that this is not a trial.

This period is meant to make sure that Ogambo and his minions don't take an INNOCENT man to trial. It is not to prove guilt or innocence or even that Ogambo did not investigate.

So it is a fallacy to state as the media has been stating that Ocampo has to prove anything at this juncture.

In fact, it is the defence on trial here. They have to show absolutely and in no uncertain terms that their guys are innocent. Eg. You see that kameeting you were saying I was, I was in Karumaindo with my ndogo ndogo and here are the pictures.....etc.

All that ogambo and the nigerians have to show is a train of thought and a logic behind their thinking. So far, you be the judge.

But it would be a good thing to listen to the judges questions as it will be very clear what they are thinking.

So after the DC said all he had to say, they thought, isn't this the same guy who said something before a different judge? So who did he lie to? Could he do it again?

So Kahns emotional outbursts are just a sideshow. Listen to the lines of questioning from the judges. Therein lies the problem.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
simonkabz
#95 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:25:40 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
@ Taz n fundam, thank you for intervening. A biased opinionated mob discrediting Mwanza. I feel he gave a marvelous account of what really happened. Its true, its MO's word against the DC's, who was actually on ground. People also seem to forget who has the burden of proof. Guys here are looking for LITTLE faults FORGETTING the main testimony of the DC....oh he coughed....oh he farted.......oh he was behaving like my spoilt son.........I think the judges will be more interested in what he testified, not how he sneezed.

His account is a major boost, now that the judges and everybody have a picture of what really happened in Naivasha. To me, he didnt appear like he was lying as some are alluding.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
Jus Blazin
#96 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:49:43 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/23/2008
Posts: 3,966
alma wrote:
Watching this thing is like watching a horror movie.

According to the defense, Ocampo has no evidence since he's relying on Waki, KNHCr etc reports.

Well, Katerina just threw that idea out the window with its baby too by extensively quoting the Waki report.

Nothing is worse than a "super duper" witness who does not know his bosses name, doesn't know mai mahiu flyover and only saw people carrying rocks, sticks and rungus (no pangas). By the way, he moved his own family to "safety" even though he thought things were super cool.Pray Pray Pray

Come on, Katerina even quoted "lawyer" Monari in the questioning. Maybe as warning to Monari that they know about him too.

I now understand why someone would want to stand in their own defence. These witnesses may send you to trial faster than ogambo's evidence.

I know there's a place called Flyover on Nairobi - Naivasha road. I also know of Mai Mahiu centre, a junction to Narok one side and Naivasha on the other. Lakini hii Mai Mahiu Flyover sijui ni gani.

Things were cool in Naivasha when he moved his family from Nakuru which was in chaos. I repeat, many of us aren't paying attention to details. When someone is not articulate, it doesn't mean he's contradicting himself. It simply means he'll take longer to give you the answer you are looking for.

All those who think there's been contradiction, state what was contradicted and don't mistake with what Ekaterina sought for clarity. We have biased opinions here, and as per yesterday, there was nothing incriminating FM. Let us not convict anyone for the sake of conviction, let us seek justice through the truth.

Does it help seeing an innocent person jailed for our satisfaction, and the masterminds are roaming at large? Won't they repeat the same tricks in the next elections?
Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
alma
#97 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:56:03 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/20/2007
Posts: 4,432
Ok I will do my bidding as a true Kenyan citizen and choose to believe that even after all I heard from the DC, he has not contradicted himself in anyway.

In fact, I think all this Hague thing is just rumors.
Jose: If I make it through this thug life, I'll see you one day. The Lord is the only way to stop the hurt.
B.Timer
#98 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 1:59:46 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
Muthaura said though he is a suspect in this case, it is actually Ocampo who is on trial.

I now know why.

Ocampo team must have been shocked with the witness account given yesterday.

Ocampos witnesses seem ureliable, if Khans submission is anything to go by.


Putting records straight;

It is common knowledge that Police shoot to immobilise - a basic fact.

It is NOT among the charges though that the police shot citizens dead.

The DC was only careful when talking about it merely to avoid self incrimination.

The Judges asked the DC questions to seek clarification. These clarifications may work for or against the suspect.

Waki report is just that - a report - not a judgement nor the gospel truth.
The Judges have a duty to interrogate the so called Waki report before using it to pass judgement on the suspects.

The Waki report is not their document - they can hence not authenticate its integrity.

Two laywers - Adeboye (prosecution) and the Anya (Victims)were unnecessariry rude to the DC.

You have a good memory - sarcasm.
You traveled all the way here to ome and say you dont know - rude.

This shows frustration on their part - trying underhand tactics to get the witness worked up - and a chance of getting himself mixed up.

Dunia ni msongamano..
TAZ
#99 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:03:27 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 11/14/2007
Posts: 4,152
@ Alma....No one has said this is a trial or Ocampo has to declare anyone guilty but to confirm a charge, the chamber must be satisfied that the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to establish “substantial grounds” to believe that the person committed the crime....that's why i said OVERALLY.

Question is do you believe the judges are satisfied with what he's presented so far? I don't think so, possible verdict is that he'll either be told to submit additional evidence to support his charges and request a second confirmation of charges hearing. The other Possible Verdict is case to be thrown out but we know LMO won't go down without a fight.
Robinhood
#100 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:13:32 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/11/2008
Posts: 2,306
alma wrote:
Ok I will do my bidding as a true Kenyan citizen and choose to believe that even after all I heard from the DC, he has not contradicted himself in anyway.

In fact, I think all this Hague thing is just rumors.

Laughing out loudly
Great men are not always wise, neither do the aged understand judgement...
McReggae
#101 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:13:45 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
3 sides of a coin!!!
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
Robinhood
#102 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 2:43:12 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/11/2008
Posts: 2,306
TAZ wrote:
@ Alma....No one has said this is a trial or Ocampo has to declare anyone guilty but to confirm a charge, the chamber must be satisfied that the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to establish “substantial grounds” to believe that the person committed the crime....that's why i said OVERALLY.

Question is do you believe the judges are satisfied with what he's presented so far? I don't think so, possible verdict is that he'll either be told to submit additional evidence to support his charges and request a second confirmation of charges hearing. The other Possible Verdict is case to be thrown out but we know LMO won't go down without a fight.


Why the hell do people continue to argue over this issue? If the guys are guilty, we will know soon enough! Si you just be a little more patient. Dec 24th is only three months away after which someone will receive the Christmas gift, or a Christmas curse.
Great men are not always wise, neither do the aged understand judgement...
KulaRaha
#103 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:13:01 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
Robinhood wrote:
TAZ wrote:
@ Alma....No one has said this is a trial or Ocampo has to declare anyone guilty but to confirm a charge, the chamber must be satisfied that the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to establish “substantial grounds” to believe that the person committed the crime....that's why i said OVERALLY.

Question is do you believe the judges are satisfied with what he's presented so far? I don't think so, possible verdict is that he'll either be told to submit additional evidence to support his charges and request a second confirmation of charges hearing. The other Possible Verdict is case to be thrown out but we know LMO won't go down without a fight.


Why the hell do people continue to argue over this issue? If the guys are guilty, we will know soon enough! Si you just be a little more patient. Dec 24th is only three months away after which someone will receive the Christmas gift, or a Christmas curse.


Its gonna be a special Christmas....(sing in Christmas carol tune)...lalalalalalalalaaaaaaaa
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
willin2learn
#104 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:45:57 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 2/12/2008
Posts: 1,178
KulaRaha wrote:
I thought this Muthaura had a smart lawyer...why then allow such a hopeless witness? That fellow was squirming in his chair like my son does when I catch him eating chocolates....

Pathetic!


I thought the fact that Ocampo relies partly on the same witness through the waki report weakens his prosecution?
Burning Spear
#105 Posted : Tuesday, September 27, 2011 3:51:51 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 7/22/2008
Posts: 1,139
KulaRaha wrote:
I thought this Muthaura had a smart lawyer...why then allow such a hopeless witness? That fellow was squirming in his chair like my son does when I catch him eating chocolates....

Pathetic!



@KulaRaha,

sometimes you follow the mob other than giving credit where it is due.Learn to give your own independent opinion.
"You're not supposed to be so blind with patriotism that you can't face reality. Wrong is wrong, no matter who says it". Malcolm X
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