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The East will save Africa, not the West
Sure
#1 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 8:43:41 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 546
Location: Garissa


Can someone tell me why we never got this kind of projects under our friendship with the West? I have no doubt that the relationship between Kenya (Africa) and the West has been like that of a Tick and A cow. So, the West are actually blood thirsty suckers who do not wish Africa any good.

Am happy we are dealing with the Sinos on a mutual friendship level. Any one out there thinking otherwise?

Kenya’s sharp turn to the East for business and development financing under the Kibaki government has toppled European countries from their long-held position as the country’s leading sources of foreign investment. (Read: Ten firms bid for Sh5bn road project )

The latest economic data shows that China, South Africa, India and South Korea have risen to stand among the top five sources of foreign direct investment (FDI) for Kenya, knocking off the UK, Germany and the Netherlands who have occupied the space since independence.

The Kenya Investment Authority said the change in FDI pecking order deepened in the past couple of years as the majority of developed countries – under the shockwaves of debt crises – cut back on foreign investment while emerging economies scaled up their search for new business opportunities in frontier markets.

In the first six months of this year, China, South Africa, India and South Korea invested a total of Sh4.4 billion to make four out of five top sources of FDI for Kenya. Kenya Investment Authority data shows that most of the investment went into manufacturing, energy, tourism and construction sectors.

http://www.businessdaily...40/-/s7u7l3/-/index.html
Wisdom to detect when share prices hit rock bottom.
When interest on bonds keep going up, you know the bear run is on high street. When interest on bonds start leveling, the bear has met the bull and they have hit rock bottom. When the interest rates on bonds start coming down, the bull has overpowered the bear and you better be riding the bull.
Sure
#2 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:01:36 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 546
Location: Garissa
Let us do a simple mathematical problem that is the domain of Financial institutions.

If KCB gave you ten thousand but you failed to repay the loan, does it give you another ten thousand hoping you will eventually pay both loans? If you say its Okay for the bank to advance more to the defaulting borrow, your IQ is questionable.

So, why does IMF, World Bank and Western Lenders insist on giving (Assistance) loans disguised as financial aid to Kenya even when the country has not finished repaying previous loans which they very well know never found its way into development projects that would justifying the citizens paying back the same through taxation.

Actually, Kenyans should rise up and say enough is enough, why do we still continue paying back loans we have no clue where it went?

Mars group said:

IMF’s ODIOUS LOANS ARE IMPOVERISHING KENYA THROUGH COLLUSION WITH CORRUPT AGENTS – OPEN LETTER TO THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND FROM THE PARTNERSHIP FOR CHANGE, NAIROBI, JUNE 2, 2009
Wisdom to detect when share prices hit rock bottom.
When interest on bonds keep going up, you know the bear run is on high street. When interest on bonds start leveling, the bear has met the bull and they have hit rock bottom. When the interest rates on bonds start coming down, the bull has overpowered the bear and you better be riding the bull.
Sure
#3 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:07:51 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 546
Location: Garissa
The Partnership for Change therefore is joining calls for the IMF to immediately do an inventory of loans lost to corruption and public sector financial impropriety GLOBALLY. An independent panel of experts should determine, on a case by case basis, where responsibility lies. If it is found that IMF staff knowingly lent money to regimes who then siphoned it off through corruption, thereby contravening the institutions' fiduciary mandate, negotiations about sharing liability should commence immediately.

Kenya simply cannot afford more of the IMF's loan “medicine”. We as a people are demanding the freedom to follow economic policies that protect the country from more harm.

The IMF is governed by, and is accountable to, its member countries. As we are the ones that elected Kenya’s leadership, in effect it means that the IMF is ultimately beholden to US.

http://www.pambazuka.org...ory/advocacy/56912/print
Wisdom to detect when share prices hit rock bottom.
When interest on bonds keep going up, you know the bear run is on high street. When interest on bonds start leveling, the bear has met the bull and they have hit rock bottom. When the interest rates on bonds start coming down, the bull has overpowered the bear and you better be riding the bull.
tony stark
#4 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:12:52 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
You must be a journalist who is baiting wazua to get views and opinions for their next piece.
Here is mine. You should first do you research there are several projects of grander scale that were done by the west pre and post colonial period example the railway(pre colonial) and all roads in the post colonial period were more or less built with western aid.
The total amount given by western aid still does not compare to what BRICs have contributed. Now since we have established we are comparing apples and oranges we have to put in perspective what the benovolent donors aim to get.
The western aid has conditions that does not favor our corrupt governments. Fight corruption, democrazy the country etc etc. But that is not to say the BRICs dont have conditions the only difference is the BRICs conditions favour the politicians and not the people. They get cheaper resources, land to grow heir crops, commodities at cheaper rates, employment of their people etc etc.
This brings us to the more important question "which conditions are better for the common man western conditions or the East's conditions?"
jasonhill
#5 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:14:12 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2011
Posts: 322
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
http://www.nation.co.ke/.../-/729t87z/-/index.html

To the East my brother, to the East!

Best,

Hill
tony stark
#6 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:19:52 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/8/2008
Posts: 947
Sure wrote:
Let us do a simple mathematical problem that is the domain of Financial institutions.

If KCB gave you ten thousand but you failed to repay the loan, does it give you another ten thousand hoping you will eventually pay both loans? If you say its Okay for the bank to advance more to the defaulting borrow, your IQ is questionable.

So, why does IMF, World Bank and Western Lenders insist on giving (Assistance) loans disguised as financial aid to Kenya even when the country has not finished repaying previous loans which they very well know never found its way into development projects that would justifying the citizens paying back the same through taxation.

Actually, Kenyans should rise up and say enough is enough, why do we still continue paying back loans we have no clue where it went?

Mars group said:

IMF’s ODIOUS LOANS ARE IMPOVERISHING KENYA THROUGH COLLUSION WITH CORRUPT AGENTS – OPEN LETTER TO THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND FROM THE PARTNERSHIP FOR CHANGE, NAIROBI, JUNE 2, 2009


Be serious. You are busy complaining about IMF and World bank and you keep on voting in idiots at every election.
You are the problem not the IMF.
How different is it with aid from China. Does the Chinese aid help to reduce corruption???
You arguments are very juvenile.
Which newspaper do you write for??? I'm sure it's the standard!
Mainat
#7 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:30:13 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Sure-thanks for the balanced and informed opinion. Please also do a thread on why "Fractional quantum Hall effect" is important for Kenya.
Sehemu ndio nyumba
jasonhill
#8 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:35:46 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2011
Posts: 322
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
We are talking about two different things here that both need good governance.

1. Who/where the money comes from, and if the conditions of receiving the money are favorable, long term, to Kenya, and

2. Once the money is received, if it is properly managed and invested in the country.

It is fair to say that past dealings with Western aid and loans, WB and IMF included, have not been on terms favorable to Kenya. There is also a conflict of interest because of past colonialism, which leads to current economic colonialism. This is not to say that the East is an angel, no, they have their own agenda, but so far, there is no prolonged, slanted, abusive bad history, conflict of interest, or known, global conspiracy, so, we should give them a chance to partner with us, and at the same time, strive for good governance. The advantage so far is that we are seeing marked advances in infrastructure that benefits Kenya, when dealing with the East, which we only saw from the West when they themselves were here enjoying it as colonial masters, and even then, only in a very limited capacity. The rails were built for them, by them, not for us.

We should wring more out of this arrangement by demanding that planning, training, and R&D take place in Kenya, by a high percentage of Kenyans for projects meant to be started in Kenya.

For service-based companies that are now beating down the door to get into Kenya, we should require, as the EU does, that all data created in Kenya should be stored in the EAC, and not overseas. It's these kinds of "soft" requirements that get us the necessary training and operational capabilities to support our own business growth. In this case, it would force the creation of strong, stable power, fiber, datacenters, and power infrastructure investments by the multinationals wanting to enter the market.

All this said, remember that "good governance" is not defined by the West. Listening to them one could think that good governance means doing what they say, as they say do it, when in reality, they themselves don't practice it. What I will say that we need is "effective governance"... that is effective at keeping money in Kenya by way of jobs, re-investment, and exports, stoking foreign investment into the Kenyan economy, and providing a progressive, supportive business climate for Kenyan businesses, etc.

To sum up what is wrong with aid:

Just because I am broke this month and need to borrow money from my neighbor, doesn't give him the right to sleep with my wife and beat my kids.

Best,

Hill
Mainat
#9 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:47:33 AM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 11/21/2006
Posts: 1,590
Of course the Chinese are doing all this out of a special form of Chinese kindness. This article http://bit.ly/pP8Rhz might be worth a read. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Sehemu ndio nyumba
jasonhill
#10 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:53:16 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 1/22/2011
Posts: 322
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Mainat wrote:
Of course the Chinese are doing all this out of a special form of Chinese kindness. This article http://bit.ly/pP8Rhz might be worth a read. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


Good point and good link.

1. If we don't demand that there be a university set up by the Chinese that teaches Kenyans the technical ins and outs of power generation, turbine manufacturing, and energy and...

2. Don't demand that the parts and pieces be built here in Kenya

...then it's our own fault.

Even with these deals, we should at least be getting trained and process capable, while building the sustaining support industries.

Secondly, one has to appreciate the fact the Chinese aren't prancing around the country with guns, enslaving people, building country clubs, looking down on Kenyans, putting Asians in economic power seats above us, trying to force their language, culture, and government on us, and worse of all, destroying our concept of self-worth and national pride... and then making a movie and museum about it.

Sound familiar, ol' chap?

That said, it's not the West or the East that will save Africa.

Africa will save Africa.

Best,

Hill
Wendz
#11 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 10:13:38 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/19/2008
Posts: 4,268
Sure wrote:
Let us do a simple mathematical problem that is the domain of Financial institutions.

If KCB gave you ten thousand but you failed to repay the loan, does it give you another ten thousand hoping you will eventually pay both loans? If you say its Okay for the bank to advance more to the defaulting borrow, your IQ is questionable.

So, why does IMF, World Bank and Western Lenders insist on giving (Assistance) loans disguised as financial aid to Kenya even when the country has not finished repaying previous loans which they very well know never found its way into development projects that would justifying the citizens paying back the same through taxation.

Actually, Kenyans should rise up and say enough is enough, why do we still continue paying back loans we have no clue where it went?

Mars group said:

IMF’s ODIOUS LOANS ARE IMPOVERISHING KENYA THROUGH COLLUSION WITH CORRUPT AGENTS – OPEN LETTER TO THE INTERNATIONAL MONETARY FUND FROM THE PARTNERSHIP FOR CHANGE, NAIROBI, JUNE 2, 2009


I am with you 99.9% on this.... Kenya should never look back and should never think of going back to the west... if anything, we should look to improving ourselves so much that we can actually start tendering for projects in other poor countries... i believe once we are done with our 2030 vision, we shall be in a position to..

however, unfortunate as it may sound, kenya has to continue paying back the loans.... if you take up a loan and drink all of it and die in the process, guess who's gonna pay for your loan, yes, you kids and wife! the whole generation if that what it calls for.... unfortunately..... but your obligations do not disappear when you do, they are carried over to the next of kin unless you didnt have one.... sovereign debts are worse!
For Sport
#12 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 5:47:58 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
The balance of trade (Kenya / China) is terrible.
Happily, it is our fault.
Quote:
As part of efforts to improve the balance of trade with Kenya, the Chinese government has in the past few years also taken to offering financial subsidies to Chinese companies to facilitate their imports from the East Africa nation. The subsidies covered products such as coffee, tea and flowers, along with other commodities.


With the west, we can always argue about how had it is to access markets because of stringent regulation, domestic subsidies which make our products less competitive etc. What's our excuse with China?



Drunkard
#13 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 7:17:26 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
..... My point of view, I think we need to see the Chinease as who they're, the problem is that we're so blinded by all the investment they're currently doing, first, most of the chinease aid are in form of long term loans which favors China and the ruling class, Chinease will pay kickbacks to the ruling class just to get a contract and if you have to pay kickbacks to get a contract then that is a bad contrac. china do not care about Wanjikus unlike the West. When Kenya was burning in 2007 China would have supplied the Guns to kill the people if there was a need.

Note that it is China's ruling class best interest to aggressively invest in order to keep a double digit growth. Remember that Chinease Economy depend on sustaining a double digit growth because of a few reasons, one is to keep unemployment at below 5%. Currently China is fighting rising inflation which is at 6.5% and also fighting unsustainable currency pegging which, if allowed to appreciate, is going to be devastating for China( manufacturing jobs account fo 150 million to 200 million jobs).We do know that when it comes to economic policy, the primary calculation is always based on what is needed to enhance regime security at the expense of China Wanjikus.

So for us to think China is a better bet is just to be naive in order to get a fair deal with China, strong government is needed but with current governments in Africa China is exploiting Africa more than any other coloniolist has ever done!

Lastly, China has close to Zero technology at the moment, their economy depend entirely on low skill manufacturing and dumping low quality products in developing countries!
Drunkard
#14 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 7:41:23 PM
Rank: User


Joined: 5/3/2011
Posts: 559
jasonhill wrote:
Mainat wrote:
Of course the Chinese are doing all this out of a special form of Chinese kindness. This article http://bit.ly/pP8Rhz might be worth a read. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


Good point and good link.

1. If we don't demand that there be a university set up by the Chinese that teaches Kenyans the technical ins and outs of power generation, turbine manufacturing, and energy and...

2. Don't demand that the parts and pieces be built here in Kenya
...then it's our own fault.

Even with these deals, we should at least be getting trained and process capable, while building the sustaining support industries.Secondly, one has to appreciate the fact the Chinese aren't prancing around the country with guns, enslaving people, building country clubs, looking down on Kenyans, putting Asians in economic power seats above us, trying to force their language, culture, and government on us, and worse of all, destroying our concept of self-worth and national pride... and then making a movie and museum about it.

Sound familiar, ol' chap?

That said, it's not the West or the East that will save Africa.

Africa will save Africa.

Best,

Hill



Did you say your were American?
erifloss
#15 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 7:52:48 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/21/2010
Posts: 514
Location: Nairobi
The West is becoming the largest 'owners' of the East. They went in as financial institutions & advisors & are now playing around the volcker rule. Ask yourself why the first contagion shocks of the Greece debacle are being felt in Asia more, even with China's stringent ownership rules day in day out western financial institutions are opening up shop in HK, why wars always take place in resource rich countries that are strategic to the west & Eastern countries firms are always the first to get kicked out by the 'newly installed regimes'. The reality is the East will always still bow to the West & there should countries that bring 'sanity & democracy' to the table or bad governance & corruption will always rule.
'They say money cannot buy me happiness but when i compare when i had none and now, i'm happier' Kevin O'leary
fantony
#16 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 8:08:54 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/6/2006
Posts: 276
I have not read your posts. I detest that someone thinks we need to be saved.

WE DON'T.

That kind of thinking is the same that has guys in the slums saying tunaomba serikali.

As usual i think its an idle journalist promoting his articles.
dunkang
#17 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 8:16:01 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2011
Posts: 4,818
Location: -1.2107, 36.8831
fantony wrote:
I have not read your posts. I detest that someone thinks we need to be saved.

WE DON'T.

That kind of thinking is the same that has guys in the slums saying tunaomba serikali.

As usual i think its an idle journalist promoting his articles.


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erifloss
#18 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 8:24:53 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 6/21/2010
Posts: 514
Location: Nairobi
Truth be told the Chinese will want to see Lebron James play, listen to Jay Z, drive a maybach & Speak english. A guy from Singapore would love to see Rooney play & buy part of his team. An Indian academic dreams of working in the US while an Indian actor/actress dreams of appearing on a Hollywood flick. A South African wants to listen to Beyonce & drive a merc. A Brazilian footballer dreams of playing in the EPL, Russian billionaires playground is Britain or the States Abramovich comes to mind. They all dream of the West. A guy once said 'you can try to control people but you cannot control their minds forever.' Its just a matter of time before their masses get fed up with their current systems.
'They say money cannot buy me happiness but when i compare when i had none and now, i'm happier' Kevin O'leary
20mapenzi
#19 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 9:56:19 PM
Rank: Hello


Joined: 7/23/2011
Posts: 4
I am appalled by this kind of thinking!! Why do we need anyone to save us? Over 200 years post slaverly and 43 years post colonialism, we are debating who is a "better" slave master?

I think Kenyans need to kill this mentality and believe in themselves more. It needs to start at an early age. We subconsciously teach our children to become slaves right from birth. Our names, school system, food, our hair , religion and language all glorify the white man. How then are our children supposed to shed this slave mentality? How are they expected to believe nothing is immpossible?

East or west cannot save us, only we can save ourselves. And more importantly Jesus or religion will not save anyone!! One must make a choice, to have a better life or wallow in poverty.
MatataMingi
#20 Posted : Monday, September 12, 2011 11:12:18 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/17/2009
Posts: 398
Location: Where everyone knows you
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