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Africa plots mass walkout from ICC
Seeders
#21 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 6:52:51 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
We are arguing all over the place. If you tangle up arguments, you end up shouting yourself hoarse at someone who you are effectively agreeing with.

The following points have been raised here and do not necessarily have the same solution:

1. Justice for victims of the PEV
- ICC may achieve this but only somewhat.

2. Permanent end to ethnic cleansing in Kenya/Africa
- ICC cannot even start to achieve this.

3. End corruption in Africa
- ICC cannot do this.

4. The ICC applying and appearing to apply the same standards
- Frankly, I am not sure how they can deal with the perception of a bias towards Africa. Other than the fact African countries took themselves there, I think it partially has to do with the below point .

5. The influence of the UNSC-5P in referring/deferring cases to/at the ICC
- We have to live with this for a while. I do not see Africa getting a permanent seat with veto powers on the UNSC in the next 20+ years. We need at least one substantial economic-military power of international repute. At present, we do not have one. Egypt, Nigeria, South Africa all come short.

6. The hypocrisy of the West
- This is a no brainer. The US, UK, China, Russia etc governments act on and finance that which is in the best interest of their own citizens, businesses and territories. African countries must learn to do the same.
famooz
#22 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 7:57:47 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
Questioning the ICC and its process/ constitution ( take the UN security council route) does not amount to support of the Ocampo6.

Interesting how some people cannot stand hearing a different opinion. Instead of saying what they stand for and staying with the issue,they reply stuff aimed at shouting others down. ....guess what? well,we have an opinion too.

This is why the USA will continue to operate Guatanamo bay and still lecture the entire world about human rights....because we listen and see like they are the greatest example just because of aid?...just an example.
For Sport
#23 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 9:30:59 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
Ok. The ICC is flawed. Seriously flawed.
Our courts are flawed. Seriously flawed.
Lets use neither.
Or lets choose the lesser of the two evils.
masukuma
#24 Posted : Monday, March 14, 2011 9:51:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
I am yet to hear of a place where taking perceived perpetrators of crimes to the ICC has provided peace or resolved anything. If you know of such a country - please inform us.
In SA the TJRC sorted out the animosity, in Kenya we are treating symptoms and i believe that ethnic tensions are at an all time high only beaten by since 2007-2008.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
newfarer
#25 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:10:08 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
As long as Kenya and African countries remain Beggars (ie donor reliance) we will continue dancing to the songs of our colonial masters.

Instead of making pulling out of ICC a priority , Africans should first seek to free themselves out of donor reliance.The rest ni pang'ang'a tu.
punda amecheka
Surealligator
#26 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 10:43:13 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 6/27/2008
Posts: 709
Location: Velayat-e Faryab
McReggae wrote:
KulaRaha wrote:
Its true, Africa is so important, so critical to the world, that the western evil colonial powers have actually gone through the trouble of spending millions of dollars to set up a kangaroo court just to persecute (read not prosecute) poor innocent important African leaders who are beloved by their people!!!

Who says Africa only contributes 2% of global GDP? Who? those are just lies, I'm sure given all the cash stashed in private accounts outside Africa, we must be controlling almost 10%. Bashir alone has $9B in his accounts, so imagine what the rest must have? And that money is good money, it helps Africans, and helps the poor people of Africa who are being oppressed by the West and by evil America and Europe.

Long live Africa and its great leaders!!! Long live the deep thinkers of this continent, who are so smart they started this lovely thread that makes so much sense!!

We must unite to protect our great leaders, we must walk out of everything so the West can know we citizens of Africa will not allow our rightfully elected and beloved leaders down!


Well put brother, Applause Applause Applause Applause Applause


@McReggae

Is there something am missing here?
Go overdrive in purchasing the goods when there's blood on the streets, expecially if the blood is your own
2012
#27 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:01:53 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 12/9/2009
Posts: 6,592
Location: Nairobi
famooz wrote:
let's face it. ICC is a court for Africans. I find it disturbing that these countries shouting the loudest are not even signatories to the ICC. If they really believe in it's mandate,why won't they let their citizens be tried in that court?



As much as that is true, we signed into it without any arm twisting so I don't get what the big deal is. Parliament voted down the act to have the trials held here. We made this bed so let's sleep in it as the night has come.

BBI will solve it
:)
YesuWangu
#28 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:18:38 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
It takes courage to accept that which we cannot change. After convincing ourselves that ICC is meant for Africans, because it is only us Africans who can raise a panga and hack to death the next person, why dont we accept it, then?

Surely if we killed the members of the offending tribe with tomahawk missiles, nighthawks and such other high tech weaponry we Africans would not be targeted by ICC just as the others are not. That is a lesson to be learnt here.

The next war should not be fought with panga and petrol, if that is any consolation.

Kihangeri
#29 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:45:07 AM
Rank: User


Joined: 11/10/2010
Posts: 550
Location: Junction
newfarer wrote:
As long as Kenya and African countries remain Beggars (ie donor reliance) we will continue dancing to the songs of our colonial masters.

Instead of making pulling out of ICC a priority , Africans should first seek to free themselves out of donor reliance.The rest ni pang'ang'a tu.
...............That is the main reason why western countries do not like emilio as he does not do their bidding nor does he depend on their donor funds tied to death. he does not lick any pigs ass. we hav e eyes but do not see. bure kabisa. that is why i would rather the ocampa six go scot free if their icc court case will give raila an upper hand in 2012 elections. everybodty knows raila was the master mind of the pev. only a fool or his supportors cannot see that.



Why would we allow victimisation of the ocampa six and allow the one with the greatest responsibility on pev go scot free and to add on top of it, become president. tis is where africans are said to be thick in the brain. once raila takes presidency, he will rule at the whimps of the west as they paved his way to election by removing his main challnegers.
By inference, the man is all that Mr Phantom is not: an untrustworthy radical, divisive, too many enemies, a dictator, and a persistent liar...
Gaitho dialogues.


newfarer
#30 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 11:59:55 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
Kihangeri wrote:
newfarer wrote:
As long as Kenya and African countries remain Beggars (ie donor reliance) we will continue dancing to the songs of our colonial masters.

Instead of making pulling out of ICC a priority , Africans should first seek to free themselves out of donor reliance.The rest ni pang'ang'a tu.
...............That is the main reason why western countries do not like emilio as he does not do their bidding nor does he depend on their donor funds tied to death. he does not lick any pigs ass. we hav e eyes but do not see. bure kabisa. that is why i would rather the ocampa six go scot free if their icc court case will give raila an upper hand in 2012 elections. everybodty knows raila was the master mind of the pev. only a fool or his supportors cannot see that.



Why would we allow victimisation of the ocampa six and allow the one with the greatest responsibility on pev go scot free and to add on top of it, become president. tis is where africans are said to be thick in the brain. once raila takes presidency, he will rule at the whimps of the west as they paved his way to election by removing his main challnegers.


Thank God that we have archives in the internet

President Kibaki declares current drought and famine a national disaster

S
ource: Government of Kenya
Date: 16 Jan 2009

Nairobi, January 16, 2009, President Mwai Kibaki flanked by Vice-President Kalonzo Musyoka, Prime Minister Raila Odinga and Minister George Saitoti has a word with Professor Jefrey Sachs, special advisor to the United Nations Secretary- General when he officiated an International appeal for food relief at K.I.C.C, Nairobi.

President Kibaki declares current Drought and Famine a National Disaster

President Mwai Kibaki has today declared the current food emergency facing the country a National Disaster and launched a campaign to raise over 37 billion shillings required to address the urgent situation.

The President further directed all arms of the government to marshal available resources in order to respond effectively to the situation.

Speaking at the Kenyatta International Conference Centre today while making an international appeal to address the food crisis, President Kibaki expressed deep concern over the deteriorating food security for poor households.

"Our national assessment is that 10 million people are food insecure and require emergency support. These people will not be able to meet their minimum food requirements between now and the end of August 2009 without emergency measures," said the President.

During the occasion the President also warned government officials and unscrupulous traders against the manipulation of the food supply chain at the expense of the common mwananchi adding that the government would crackdown on them.

He said, "Let it be clear to all that under no circumstance will my government allow the livelihood of our people to be sacrificed at the alter of the private gain of a few people."

The Head of State noted that the government was taking varied measures to address the situation in the long term adding that the declaration of the famine as National Disaster was an emergency aimed at immediately averting further suffering of the Kenyan people.

In the medium term, President Kibaki said that in this approaching planting season his government would avail 93,000 metric tonnes of fertilizer at affordable prices to farmers and reduce the price of seeds by 10 percent.

Noting that the government was committed to making farming a rewarding venture, the President also promised that the government would provide farmers with affordable mechanical ploughing services in areas suitable for farming through the revived agricultural machinery services.

The President said, "I would therefore like to make an appeal to our farmers to increase the amount of land planted, so as to increase food production in the 2009/10 crop season. In indeed, our farmers remain out best hope for food self-sufficiency."

With regard to the current food shortage, the Head of State said that the government has made arrangements to import 7 million bags of maize at an estimated cost of 17 billion shillings in order to mitigate the crisis.

He further revealed that the government has also set aside 3 billion shillings for procurement of additional relief food supplies and another 1 billion shillings for non-food emergency interventions, while yet another 1.2 billion shillings has been allocated for the provision of water, purchase of livestock and supply of hay in arid areas.

The President said that the government in collaboration with the World Food Programme was feeding 1.4 people under the emergency operation programme while the government was also feeding another 1 million people through direct interventions.

He observed, "However, these ongoing programmes cannot absorb the sharp increase in numbers of needy people requiring relief food without additional resources."

Out of the required 37 billion shillings, President Kibaki said that the government had raised 5.2 billion shillings and urged development partners to help cater for the shortfall of about 32 billion shillings to cushion the 10 million Kenyans from the imminent starvation.

The government estimates that 30.2 billion shillings will be required for emergency food supplies, 3.8 billion shillings for the education sector, 1.3 billion for water, health and nutrition programmes and 2.6 billion is required in agricultural and livestock interventions.

The most affected areas are marginal districts in Eastern, Coast and Central provinces as well as pastoral and agro-pastoral areas of Rift Valley and North Eastern provinces.

President Kibaki attributed the current food crisis to severe drought facing the country as well as failure of short-rains in many parts of the country and consecutive poor rains in past two years.

The Head of State also noted that other non-drought factors have contributed to the situation particularly the post-election violence that heavily disrupted the season in the country's breadbasket region as well as the global energy crisis.

He said that the country's economy faced high inflation worsened by the effects of the post election events as well as by the international food crisis and the oil crisis.

President Kibaki said, "The global energy crisis resulted in our producers facing high fertilizer prices, which in turn led to lower levels of use. The global food crisis led to high commodity prices, which made imported grains very expensive."

The President commended the international community and development partners for their previous responses to such emergencies and urged them to avail their support on time to save the lives of the needy citizens.

Speaking during the same occasion, Prime Minister Raila Odinga assured the Donor Community and other relief agencies of the government's commitment to ensure transparency in importation and distribution of maize and other cereals to affected citizens.

Mr Raila who is the chairman of the Cabinet Food Security Committee said the necessary mechanisms were also being put in place to seal loopholes that may be used by a few unscrupulous people to create artificial shortages.

The Prime Minister said that despite the social and economic instability occasioned by the current food crisis, the government has no intention of re-introducing rigid price controls.

Vice President Kalonzo Musyoka commended the media for highlighting the plight of the hungry in the country saying most regions recorded 100 per cent crop failure.

Several development partners appealed to the government to relax rules at the port of Mombasa that may delay the urgent importation of maize to the country.

Some donors pledged food aid worthy million of shillings while others said they would scale up their assistance as soon as they complete current drought assessments in the country.

Through representatives, China pledged US $ 3 million food aid and Japan Kshs. 3 billion among others

The meeting was attended by several Cabinet Ministers, Head of Public Service and Secretary to the Cabinet Amb. Francis Muthaura, representatives of the civil societies, donor community and diplomatic corps among other dignitaries.
punda amecheka
KulaRaha
#31 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:10:38 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 7/26/2007
Posts: 6,514
maskini
Business opportunities are like buses,there's always another one coming
Seeders
#32 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:17:24 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 234
Location: Nairobi
- kenya's big kabilas have fallen into predictable formation behind their respective sons.

- deja vu. it is 2006-7 all over again.
McReggae
#33 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:23:17 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 23,365
Location: Nairobi
Crimes against humanity, as defined by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Explanatory Memorandum, "are particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. Murder; extermination; torture; rape; political, racial, or religious persecution and other inhumane acts reach the threshold of crimes against humanity only if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice. Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of falling into the category of crimes under discussion."
..."Wewe ni mtu mdogo sana....na mwenye amekuandika pia ni mtu mdogo sana!".
B.Timer
#34 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 12:53:09 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 5/31/2008
Posts: 1,076
McReggae wrote:
Crimes against humanity, as defined by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Explanatory Memorandum, "are particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. Murder; extermination; torture; rape; political, racial, or religious persecution and other inhumane acts reach the threshold of crimes against humanity only if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice. Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of falling into the category of crimes under discussion."



How do we rate Uhurus case over Naivasha and Nakuru.
Dunia ni msongamano..
famooz
#35 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:35:51 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/19/2007
Posts: 2,047
YesuWangu wrote:
It takes courage to accept that which we cannot change. After convincing ourselves that ICC is meant for Africans, because it is only us Africans who can raise a panga and hack to death the next person, why dont we accept it, then?

Surely if we killed the members of the offending tribe with tomahawk missiles, nighthawks and such other high tech weaponry we Africans would not be targeted by ICC just as the others are not. That is a lesson to be learnt here.

The next war should not be fought with panga and petrol, if that is any consolation.



The ICC does not target only the people who raise pangas and machetes.....crimes against humanity is way broader than this.

Anybody out there wondering why ICC already has tentacles in Libya citing crimes against humanity,yet nothing can be done to US + UK because of their unilateral invasion of Iraq,wounding million and leaving others maimed for life in search of non-existent WMD?

It helps to take a sober look at the world as it and the world as it should be in broader parameters.

Take a look at the options that East Timor,Sierra leone and Cambodia took after unrest in these countries.






YesuWangu
#36 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:47:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 8/11/2010
Posts: 1,588
famooz wrote:
YesuWangu wrote:
It takes courage to accept that which we cannot change. After convincing ourselves that ICC is meant for Africans, because it is only us Africans who can raise a panga and hack to death the next person, why dont we accept it, then?

Surely if we killed the members of the offending tribe with tomahawk missiles, nighthawks and such other high tech weaponry we Africans would not be targeted by ICC just as the others are not. That is a lesson to be learnt here.

The next war should not be fought with panga and petrol, if that is any consolation.



The ICC does not target only the people who raise pangas and machetes.....crimes against humanity is way broader than this.

Anybody out there wondering why ICC already has tentacles in Libya citing crimes against humanity,yet nothing can be done to US + UK because of their unilateral invasion of Iraq,wounding million and leaving others maimed for life in search of non-existent WMD?

It helps to take a sober look at the world as it and the world as it should be in broader parameters.

Take a look at the options that East Timor,Sierra leone and Cambodia took after unrest in these countries.








I know, I know and I hear you.

What other lessons can we learn from those countries? Surely there is more than just 'they had local tribunals'.

a) How did they set them up, how fast did they do it?
b) How transparent did they do it? How independent were they?
c) How fearless were they accusing and confronting the powers-that-were?
d) Etc

You know, the whole nine yards. It helps being a super power, it will help you escape things that you easily force others to go through. And the juicy part is, there is nothing they can do about it. That is the world as it is.
masukuma
#37 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 3:06:20 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 10/4/2006
Posts: 13,821
Location: Nairobi
people think ICC is a cure for problems - in all countries that have used it, it has been given leeway?
ICC WILL NOT MEND THE RELATIONS BETWEEN WARING/COMPETING COMMUNITIES
IT HAS NEVER DONE NOR WILL EVER DO - ITS NOT A PANACEA.

unless Issues are sorted, we are treating a symptoms.
All Mushrooms are edible! Some Mushroom are only edible ONCE!
bwenyenye
#38 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 3:18:52 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/24/2007
Posts: 1,805
Good People,

I am not convinced that ICC is the way to go for Kenya, I just do not see another 'real option'. We could not even touch the 'drug lords'. Our Top Cop came out of it scathed! yet these are just businessmen who are protected by the powers that be!!! How much do you think we can do to the Powers that be!!! Let's get real folks!
I Think Therefore I Am
newfarer
#39 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 3:19:28 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 3/19/2010
Posts: 3,504
Location: Uganda
masukuma wrote:
people think ICC is a cure for problems - in all countries that have used it, it has been given leeway?
ICC WILL NOT MEND THE RELATIONS BETWEEN WARING/COMPETING COMMUNITIES
IT HAS NEVER DONE NOR WILL EVER DO - ITS NOT A PANACEA.

unless Issues are sorted, we are treating a symptoms.


Now we are sure that a local tribunal to try the big shots will be Kupaka mbwa rangi given the way they have been shifting goals.OOH dont be vague lets go to hague, mara hague will take upto 2090 to try us , who will be alive that time ? ,mara local tribunal is the best for our sovereighty .Goal shifting.

Justice must be seen to be done to the IDPs.This can only be done from outside since weve had 3 years to do it internally yet nothing has been done.Wacha ICC itusaide. Tumeshindwa
punda amecheka
2 Miles
#40 Posted : Tuesday, March 15, 2011 4:05:28 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 10/26/2010
Posts: 125
And those complaining that US and other superpowers are not in the ICC or are involved in crimes against humanity, well the big boys always do what they want. What can we do anyway??? Kenya first has to threaten 'bout leaving the ICC, then maybe leave-( am 95 % sure that Kenya won't leave ). If we were a serious state, we would simply leave. In East Africa , where we pride ourselves of being the most influential , we don't take some of our neighbours seriously.
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