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kibaki nominates visram as chief justice
poundfoolish
#41 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 1:36:54 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 12/2/2009
Posts: 2,458
Location: Nairobi
LOL!!!

this country is run on either appeasing or annoying Raila

question is.. are this guys compitent? Yes (depending)

do they represent neutrality? (who cares)

mother of all questions.. Do they increase/reduce the number of sufurias in my house.. the moment their effects are felt to that level.. it will be a Tunisia and Egypt combination... 'Nitafunga' na Mtu
Ngalaka
#42 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:13:03 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
aemathenge wrote:
Could someone please interprete "In Consultation with the Prime Minister...." for us lesser mortals and give us the procedures that should be undertaken for "Consultation" to have deemed successful?

Supposing during "In Consultation.." both principals do not agree, then what?

Do they really have to agree?

Please enlighten me before I make a verdict.



Pertinent issues you raise up there!

We are all advised to consult widely before reaching a decision!!!!!!
Interesting if it werent debilitating.

This represents some of the constitution shortcomings!
Whenever anybody attempted to highlight any such gray areas, during the run up to the referendum they were shouted down.

http://www.wazua.co.ke/f....aspx?g=posts&t=7699
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
Ngalaka
#43 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 6:22:13 AM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 10/29/2008
Posts: 1,566
Intelligentsia wrote:
newfarer, thanks for setting record straight.

BTW, newfarer = fundaah? discuss (20 marks)


Ha ha ha!

Hawk eyed you are.

POLITICS OF ICC
Kibaki and Raila are simply pulling from opposing ends.

Kibaki wants to demonstrate that Kenya is now ready to handle the PEV cases - to save akina Muthaura and Uhuru from a one way KLM ticket, while Raila wants Uhuru and Ruto gone to Hague pronto!
Isuni yilu yi maa me muyo - ni Mbisuu
simonkabz
#44 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:06:41 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 3/2/2007
Posts: 8,776
Location: Cameroon
@newfarer, asante 4 collecting ma big mouth...bt controversy is good, it ploughs up more opinions.
TULIA.........UFUNZWE!
sihingwa
#45 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 2:50:09 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/29/2010
Posts: 216
Location: Kenia
simonkabz wrote:
@newfarer, asante 4 collecting ma big mouth...bt controversy is good, it ploughs up more opinions.


@ Simonkabz, good attitude! makes debates of this kind very sober
Jus Blazin
#46 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 9:33:53 PM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/23/2008
Posts: 3,966
aemathenge wrote:
Could someone please interprete "In Consultation with the Prime Minister...." for us lesser mortals and give us the procedures that should be undertaken for "Consultation" to have deemed successful?

Supposing during "In Consultation.." both principals do not agree, then what?

Do they really have to agree?

Please enlighten me before I make a verdict.

(2) A new Chief Justice shall be appointed by the President, subject to the National Accord and Reconciliation Act, and after consultation with the Prime Minister and with the approval of the National Assembly.

According to the dictionary:
Consult: to go to a person for information or advice.
Consult with: to exchange opinions or information with someone.
Consultation: a meeting held to exchange opinions and ideas so that a decision can be made.

As per the above, Kibaks appoints, after consulting with PM, then Parliament approves


There is no where it states that consultation must always lead to an agreement with the person you are consulting with. Meaning that MK and RAO may have consulted but they never agreed. But since consultation took place, MK was the one with the authority of making a decision concerning CJ, AG, DPP. He now had the choice to use RAO's input or not.

Hence @mahe-goat, they dont have to agree. MK has the final word. No matter what others say, consulting and agreement are two different things and their correlation does not necessarily imply causation.
Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
safariant
#47 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 10:54:45 PM
Rank: Member

Joined: 9/9/2010
Posts: 784
Location: ant hill - red hill
newfarer wrote:
aemathenge wrote:
Could someone please interprete "In Consultation with the Prime Minister...." for us lesser mortals and give us the procedures that should be undertaken for "Consultation" to have deemed successful?

Supposing during "In Consultation.." both principals do not agree, then what?

Do they really have to agree?

Please enlighten me before I make a verdict.



Yes they have to agree , that is the main purpose of consulting , otherwise why consult ?



However, government spokesman Alfred Mutua insisted that President Kibaki and Mr Odinga held several ‘intense’ consultations over names of the nominees with the first one being before Christmas and the last two days ago.

“Consultations do not mean one hundred percent agreement or one hundred percent consensus. Otherwise, the country would never move forward,” he said.
The greatest act of bravery is chancing a fart while suffering from diarrhoea
For Sport
#48 Posted : Sunday, January 30, 2011 11:47:10 PM
Rank: Veteran

Joined: 12/23/2010
Posts: 1,229
@ Jus Blazin
What you are interpreting is a word contained in a legal document – the Constitution.
You could also try going beyond the dictionary and plain meaning. Words are loaded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purposive_theory
http://worid-of-books.com/?id=E0uxBVW1cuUC (a whole book on purposive interpretation).

A word can mean whatever you want it to mean. So the big questions here are what did we want? What was meant? What was the spirit of that provision?

When we were in Egypt, the Courts insisted on intepreting the Constitution using the approach you are proposing...giving words their plain and literal meaning (Chief Justice Mwendwa. And the results were so unjust that the approach was abandoned several Chief Justices ago. More progressive approaches were adopted to breath life to the constitution. It will be interesting to see whether we lose all that progress because we have a new Constitution which has not been subjected to similar exercises in interpratation. If so, we're the losers here...

In 2004, an article by Githu titled “Political Jurisprudence or Neutral Principles: Another Look at the Problem of Constitutional Interpretation” was published. He said in effect that constitutions (with their infinite variability in text, values, doctrine and institutional practice) may be interpreted differently by different yet equally well-meaning people.

I insist, words are flexible. They can shrink and expand. And words are tools.
The answer depends on whether this is politics or law. And whether we prefer the dictionary and technical interpretations over certain values. Not on your English or mine.
petro08
#49 Posted : Monday, January 31, 2011 12:09:48 AM
Rank: New-farer

Joined: 9/20/2010
Posts: 90
Location: Nairobi
Hahaha. If Raila goes to court, it will be interesting to listen as lawyers try to prove their client's case on the word "consultation".

Now, the judges may rule that consultations is just a cheap word. Just that "consultation" where they do not have to agree.

But in case the Judges view is that consultation means "agreement", then we should say that the constitution drafters failed big time on this.

Why do I say this? If they meant an "agreement", then It should have been obvious to them that two people could disagree, yes, It's common sense. In this case, the same constitution ought to have provided the way forward when both parties do not agree.

But then again I wonder, if really the word consensus meant agreement, then this is how they should have phrased the wording.

"A new Chief Justice shall be appointed by both the President and the Prime Minister".

My opinion. Please do not hang me on this.
Jus Blazin
#50 Posted : Monday, January 31, 2011 7:09:12 AM
Rank: Elder

Joined: 10/23/2008
Posts: 3,966
@petro, my point exactly. you've rephrased it quite well.

@For Sport, wachana na progressive, regressive and digressive theories. Now the below would definitely have meant agreement.
petro08 wrote:
But then again I wonder, if really the word consensus meant agreement, then this is how they should have phrased the wording.

"A new Chief Justice shall be appointed by both the President and the Prime Minister".

Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity. ~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca
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