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How much money does it take to be affluent in Kenya?
Rank: Member Joined: 8/29/2008 Posts: 573
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Kenyanlyrics&Jasonhill: That's a racist question.Please plead the "Fifth amendment"!!
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2011 Posts: 322 Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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@VituVingiSana, thanks for the advice. Can you tell me what goods stand out in your mind that are more expensive or are of an unusable quality? Maybe we'll get together one day and find a way to import better goods at cheaper prices. 99.999% of goods sold in the USA are made in China. There must be a fair amount of "rebadging" going on for Kenyans to think that US products are of a higher quality. I don't see why we can't cut out the middle man and import direct from China. The only thing that the USA and UK companies do is make Chinese companies refund their (and thus the customer's) money for shoddy items and offer warranties to customers. The warranty simply means that they will send a bad item back to China and China sends out a new, working item. Labor is too expensive in the US and UK to repair most things- cheaper to replace. That said, I don't understand what seems to me to be a Kenyan affinity for US and UK goods, and an aversion to Chinese goods. All the US and UK do is quality-assess and inspect the goods, and demand the better quality yields, and better specifications of the same products from the same factories in China. If we enforce such wholesale quality and spec demands of China from Kenya, we will be able to offer good products for cheaper and make a fortune. What I don't know about, not having done business in Kenya, is import duties and getting stuff through the port of Mombasa... paperwork gets stalled... that's my biggest concern. I can't have that. I'll pay kitu kidogo, if I have to. In the US, kitu kidogo is called "consulting fees" and "union scale" or some other catchy term. There is no difference, except once it is paid things move very, very quickly. I just can't ever have business waiting- ever. That would put us at a tactical disadvantage. On the other hand, I don't want to have to commute to Mombasa every other day to make sure my stuff gets offloaded and into trucks. Other than that, there's billions of Shillings in retail if we cut out the middleman, in my view, and I look to my fellow Wazuans to "show me the ropes".
@X13united, thanks for the comment. I love the fact that it seems that Kenya is at the point where a great deal of money can be made in international business by being flexible and adapting to changing market conditions and needs. I'm open to any legit business that I can understand that isn't a pyramid scheme, and that I have a direct, on-the-ground hand in directing and contributing to. That's my issue with stocks- if I'm not on the board of directors, I have a problem, because I lack the influence to move the stock- unless I buy a controlling interest in it in which case I'd install myself as COO.
@jmbada, I agree totally. In the US, having house helps is out of the question unless you make around 80,000,000Ksh+ a year. Labor is very, very expensive and regulated. That's the greatest luxury to me: multiple personal assistants. In the US I have a work-only secretary. I need a personal one (or two). Every other luxury item, besides very fast internet and maybe a decent Italian suit or two, I can do without. I'm as comfortable in a Changaa joint with a giant straw as in the Sarova for lunch drinking Mtembezi Blue.
Power and water are indeed a concern of mine; I have baked in plans for extra generators, flywheel UPSs and water tanks into all commercial and residential projects that I have in mind. I was considering building a datacenter, but I think I will wait until the telecom wars are over and internet access prices even out, all the fiber is laid, and AccessKenya has spent all its cash on fiber, and maybe buy them out and restructure their debt ;)
As far as the downsides like traffic, bribes, power outages, bad cars, street boys, etc... sounds like Los Angeles, which is where I'm from. And in true Los Angelino fashion, I'll probably open a record label and recording studio just for fun when I touchdown in Nai. Maybe KenyanLyrics can help with with running that and recruiting talent.
@AliBaba thanks for the tax tip. I hear that you don't mess around with the KRA... you pay them, and on time, so I'll keep that in mind when calculating my returns.
@KenyanLyrics, Fair question. I am a Negro/Colored/Black/African American...Acata Technology Executive. Now if you had asked me my tribe, I would have been offended ;)
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Rank: Member Joined: 7/5/2008 Posts: 390
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@jasonhill, u from LA not Cleveland?
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/7/2009 Posts: 18
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jasonhill : you need to be real if you all that you would not have been coming here for our 2cts hire a consultant to do you your ground work in kenya .peace out
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2011 Posts: 322 Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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@Apple Bees, I was born and raised in Los Angeles. My career has taken me to Cleveland, where I currently reside. And it's 0 degrees F outside as I speak.
@DaveM, I only use consultants to develop code and for other technical, succinctly measurable functions in which I don't need to pay the salary of a full-time employee. I would never use a consultant to meet people, network, build and run a business, especially in a market that is new to me. That's how businesses become insolvent, because the consultant gets paid whether he or she produces results, or just spends the budget at Florida 2000, all while giving you great reports. You have to get in there yourself and get to know people like the folks here on Wazua, so that you can have some kind of idea of the business climate when you touch down. Like I said, I have to be on the ground, with my hands in and contributing to, anything that I invest my time or money in.
DaveM, As far as being "all that", I will just say "thank you for your compliment" :) You must certainly realize that Wazua's tag line is "Serious talk about wealth". So you would have to expect, logically, that someone would join the board and "seriously talk about wealth" sooner or later, wouldn't you agree? Besides, there is indeed SERIOUS wealth in Kenya, no? I've seen the pictures of Bentleys and Ferraris and beautiful homes in Karen, Lavington, and Runda on the web. And these are Black homes and businesses, not just Indian and British.That's something you don't see often here in the US. That is truly inspiring. I would like to invest my knowledge and capabilities and share what I personally know of how to build successful enterprises from the US, in Kenya. Besides, it's a lot more than 2 cents, otherwise, why are the British, Indians, and now Chinese and Italians there? They see the promise and the bright future that Kenya has. But do you? And are you going to let THEM reap the benefits but not you?
I know that Kenya has its problems. I follow what goes on to the best of my ability via the Standard and Daily Nation, as well as talking to people there and in the diaspora. But every country has its share of problems, and no more or no less so than Kenya. It's just that in the West we have more money to throw at the problems (and to fill pockets with). But things are looking rosier there in EA, and much less rosier here in the West, as far as opportunity.
I think your reflected attitude toward my post has nothing to do with me. I think that it has something to do with you and your own personal feelings about East Africa. See, here in the US, the in-the-know business executives see Kenya as the next India, and in short order. The smart execs want to know all they can and make inroads. Also here in the US, the average poor, middle-class, and ignorant-class of wealthy (who will eventually lose said wealth) know nothing about the rest of the world, let alone East Africa, and ignorantly, shamelessly think that the whole continent is a, excuse my terminology "banana republic".
I would think that Kenyans in the diaspora should be relaying this information to Kenyan professionals such as yourself.
I met P.S. Bitange Ndemo at a Diaspora Business Forum in Atlanta, Georgia in 2009. He inspired the local business community to look further into the business opportunities in Kenya, especially in BPO and ICT. He was right. The opportunities are great.
The truth of the matter is, globally, technology has pretty much peaked. It is Africa and its educated, yet still earth-in-tune people that will take humanity to the next level. They say Africa shall rise. I say Africa is rising, and if you don't pay attention, you will be left behind. DaveM, don't be left behind with it right in front of your face.
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Rank: New-farer Joined: 5/3/2010 Posts: 69
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Well said man. Have gotten into trouble for saying Kenyans obsession with American products is partly driven by negative western media propaganda against anything Chinese. There may though be quality issues because of weaker import controls in Kenya. But a product is not poor quality simply because it is from China. And it is true that the best margins for BPO and IT businesses today are in Africa. Even India is seeing a rise in wages in the IT/BPO sector and does not have the advantage it used to. Then there are language issues. Thanks to relatively low cost and high speed internet, the possibilities in Kenya are limitless. jasonhill wrote:99.999% of goods sold in the USA are made in China. There must be a fair amount of "rebadging" going on for Kenyans to think that US products are of a higher quality. That said, I don't understand what seems to me to be a Kenyan affinity for US and UK goods, and an aversion to Chinese goods. In the US, kitu kidogo is called "consulting fees" and "union scale" or some other catchy term. There is no difference, except once it is paid things move very, very quickly.
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Rank: Member Joined: 6/7/2009 Posts: 18
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"because the consultant gets paid whether he or she produces results, or just spends the budget at Florida 2000"
Just for you information your statement is wrong .I have done consultancy for fortune 50 companies here in states and currently consulting for Apple Inc on SAP BI/BOBJ check that out if you in IT and we dont get paid for doing nothing , we produce results and thats why consultants get paid way more than regular pple .If you hire Quack consultants thats what you get .I am on the boat FYI .
My question was with all the numbers you are talking about and the life you would wanna live in kenya if you were serious enough you could have flew to kenya , established serious networking in both ICT and Business sector and do some POC .
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Rank: Member Joined: 1/22/2011 Posts: 322 Location: Chicago, IL, USA
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You have validated my point. You are an SAP consultant. As I said, that is technical, measurable, and doesn't need to necessarily be a full-time position while in the implementation phase. I still perform consulting work for Fortune 500 companies that need rock-solid, enterprise class solutions. I've done such work for IBM, CSC, Toshiba, Deloitte, and on and on, so I know where you are coming from.
But you are incorrect my friend, on hiring consultants for setting up and operating a business at my level in an organization. The type of work you are speaking of is nuts and bolts. When starting and running a business in which you are in charge and responsible at the 100,000 foot level, not just the 500 foot level, you can't outsource that job, or you are putting your destiny in the hands of an "outsider", and your business will likely fail. And, actually, most consultants are indeed quacks, as they have no allegiance to the company that they are consulting for, are only around for a short time, and are usually not properly managed- in fact many times are simply a band-aid for bad management that doesn't properly train, resource-plan, and invest in its own employees. I myself am a consultant, and I always tell my clients that there is nothing that they couldn't do for themselves if they groom and invest in their people and get them to where I am at.
And don't get me started on consultants from a certain country in South East Asia that will remain unnamed... I've never seen tens of millions of dollars wasted so fast... I've gotten very good contracts just coming in and cleaning up after those guys. And you being in IT in the states should know exactly what I'm talking about.
How does one use a consultant to meet people? To play a few rounds of golf at Karen CC? To wave at someone having lunch in the Sarova? There are things that you do must yourself. If you were born in Kenya, don't you wish someone could have told you the real story about the US before you went? I'm sure that most Kenyans in the diaspora wish a thousand times that someone would have told them the truth about the US, and how to navigate the system. So I want the same thing, from my friends and associates, before going to Kenya.
As far as getting on a plane and going, I have done that. And it led to many questions. Now, I am getting answers to those questions about the hows and whys of doing business in Kenya from all of the great people here at Wazua, as well as friends and associates here in the US in cities such as Boston, Los Angeles, Houston, Kansas City, Atlanta, and even *gulp* Des Moines and Columbus. I am learning Kiswahili (from Tanzanians ;)). Even sheng from Eastlands BuruBuru Phase 4 folks. I am studying the politics, history, and business of Kenya. I know how to personally set up a business in Kenya without having to hire an attorney. I am meeting wonderful people here in the US before quitting my position, packing up all my stuff, and moving half way around the world. I would think that would be smarter than flying blind.
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Rank: Elder Joined: 7/23/2008 Posts: 3,017
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@Jason Hill, Do you have a Kenya background? Your choice of luxury car GX Prado (only considered a luxury in Kenya) makes me think you know more of Kenya than you are letting on. Tell you what, if you can sustain good incomes 500K+ a month (free cashflows to burn), you don't need to worry about living. I can assure you, you will live well save for the holiday's which can vary depending of one's idea of a holiday. I would not worry about water, electricity, crime etc, They will not be the things keeping you awake, if you live in the right location. "The purpose of bureaucracy is to compensate for incompetence and lack of discipline." James Collins
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Rank: Veteran Joined: 11/30/2006 Posts: 635
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jasonhill wrote:@VituVingiSana, thanks for the advice. Can you tell me what goods stand out in your mind that are more expensive or are of an unusable quality? Maybe we'll get together one day and find a way to import better goods at cheaper prices. 99.999% of goods sold in the USA are made in China. There must be a fair amount of "rebadging" going on for Kenyans to think that US products are of a higher quality. I don't see why we can't cut out the middle man and import direct from China. The only thing that the USA and UK companies do is make Chinese companies refund their (and thus the customer's) money for shoddy items and offer warranties to customers. The warranty simply means that they will send a bad item back to China and China sends out a new, working item. Labor is too expensive in the US and UK to repair most things- cheaper to replace. That said, I don't understand what seems to me to be a Kenyan affinity for US and UK goods, and an aversion to Chinese goods. All the US and UK do is quality-assess and inspect the goods, and demand the better quality yields, and better specifications of the same products from the same factories in China. If we enforce such wholesale quality and spec demands of China from Kenya, we will be able to offer good products for cheaper and make a fortune. What I don't know about, not having done business in Kenya, is import duties and getting stuff through the port of Mombasa... paperwork gets stalled... that's my biggest concern. I can't have that. I'll pay kitu kidogo, if I have to. In the US, kitu kidogo is called "consulting fees" and "union scale" or some other catchy term. There is no difference, except once it is paid things move very, very quickly. I just can't ever have business waiting- ever. That would put us at a tactical disadvantage. On the other hand, I don't want to have to commute to Mombasa every other day to make sure my stuff gets offloaded and into trucks. Other than that, there's billions of Shillings in retail if we cut out the middleman, in my view, and I look to my fellow Wazuans to "show me the ropes".
@X13united, thanks for the comment. I love the fact that it seems that Kenya is at the point where a great deal of money can be made in international business by being flexible and adapting to changing market conditions and needs. I'm open to any legit business that I can understand that isn't a pyramid scheme, and that I have a direct, on-the-ground hand in directing and contributing to. That's my issue with stocks- if I'm not on the board of directors, I have a problem, because I lack the influence to move the stock- unless I buy a controlling interest in it in which case I'd install myself as COO.
@jmbada, I agree totally. In the US, having house helps is out of the question unless you make around 80,000,000Ksh+ a year. Labor is very, very expensive and regulated. That's the greatest luxury to me: multiple personal assistants. In the US I have a work-only secretary. I need a personal one (or two). Every other luxury item, besides very fast internet and maybe a decent Italian suit or two, I can do without. I'm as comfortable in a Changaa joint with a giant straw as in the Sarova for lunch drinking Mtembezi Blue.
Power and water are indeed a concern of mine; I have baked in plans for extra generators, flywheel UPSs and water tanks into all commercial and residential projects that I have in mind. I was considering building a datacenter, but I think I will wait until the telecom wars are over and internet access prices even out, all the fiber is laid, and AccessKenya has spent all its cash on fiber, and maybe buy them out and restructure their debt ;)As far as the downsides like traffic, bribes, power outages, bad cars, street boys, etc... sounds like Los Angeles, which is where I'm from. And in true Los Angelino fashion, I'll probably open a record label and recording studio just for fun when I touchdown in Nai. Maybe KenyanLyrics can help with with running that and recruiting talent.
@AliBaba thanks for the tax tip. I hear that you don't mess around with the KRA... you pay them, and on time, so I'll keep that in mind when calculating my returns.
@KenyanLyrics, Fair question. I am a Negro/Colored/Black/African American...Acata Technology Executive. Now if you had asked me my tribe, I would have been offended ;) nicde thought boss. AcessKenya market cap is kes. 2.8b
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