wazua Sat, Nov 16, 2024
Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Log In | Register

2 Pages12>
Hass Consult Q3 2010 Property Index
mwanahisa
#1 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 6:19:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2008
Posts: 1,438
I have just seen this report whose link was kindly posted by SCUBIDU (Thanks Scubidu) on the Convexity of bonds thread. I have had a quick read and although I am no property expert, I can see some glaring inconsistencies with what I know to be the facts on the ground.

It is however a nice read, especially considering that is precious little data on the Real Estate market in Kenya.

You will all recall seeing the oft quoted statistic of the annual supply of housing in Kenya standing at 35,000 units against demand of 150,000. I think I have been seeing this same statistic for the last 5 years. With population and economic growth during the period, I think this is seriously OUTDATED.

I would therefore commend Hass Consult for their initiative, even if I think their study is skewed towards high end properties.

Have a read and see what you think.

Here's the link.

http://www.hassconsult.c...ries/quarter%203.10.pdf

SCUBIDU - I hope you do not mind my taking this liberty with what you initiated.

Over to y'all!
mwanahisa attached the following image(s):
hassrv.jpg (22kb) downloaded 5 time(s).
Scubidu
#2 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 7:51:45 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@mwanahisa. No worries dude. It wasn't even my topic or anything. Ive always been interested in setting up something like a property index and I'm impressed at how they keep refining there methods (and source their data).

Interesting the change in rents for town houses and apartments versus housing prices. Using the data on the last page, do you think we can find the rental yields for different locations? I tend to think these days people don't care about rents but I'm a firm believer in the Rich Dad Poor Dad philosophy (cashflow).

I'm reminded of that post by kk months ago about how to gauge a property bubble (see below), maybe as more info comes in we can see what stage of the cycle we're in.

http://www.globalpropert...id-buying-into-a-bubble

I'm completely green on real estate. Can you elaborate on some of the inconsistencies in the report.

Regards,

“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
mwanahisa
#3 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:35:33 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 6/2/2008
Posts: 1,438
The report reads; “Hass Consult is today issuing for the first time a nationwide index of property prices in Kenya.”

It further states that; “The Annual average is representative of all properties offered for sale in Kenya.”

In the Index, “The average value of a property has gone from Kshs 6.83 million in December 2000 to Kshs 19.34 million in September 2010.”

As for rentals, it says, “The Hass Property Composite Index is representative of all property for rental in Kenya.”

It then summarizes, “The average rental of a property has gone from Kshs 36,766 in December 2001 to Kshs 93,959 in September 2010.”

In my view this is certainly not representative of a Kenya wide situation. It seems to be based on the sort of properties that Hass Consult and others such as Knight Frank and Dunhill deal with. Knowing what the average income is for most middle to upper income Kenyans, I would doubt that many pay an average monthly rent of 94 K a month. While they are those who do indeed pay rents of more than 200K, I believe that these are in the minority and hence the mean would be pushed well below what they give as an average.

Looking at specific average rentals for various suburbs I also doubt whether the average rent for an area such as Kitengela is Kshs 49,300, Thika 40,100 or that of Buru Buru is 17,300.

What do others think?
kadonye
#4 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:26:09 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
Will read it later.Real estate firms with capacity to do research and such reports only deal with high end properties.The only good source would be the University of Nairobi's School of Built Environment or HABRI-Housing and Building Research Institute within UoN. @mwanahisa,I agree that such info is inacurrate but it's good that someone has taken the pain to make the report
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
Renegade
#5 Posted : Wednesday, October 13, 2010 11:40:22 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/18/2009
Posts: 118
Looks like I am doing badly. My rent is less than $1,000 and the average is around $1,200. I need to find myself a new job.
muganda
#6 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:44:50 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
@mwanahisa, agree with your comments - KShs 93,959 average rental property brings into question the survey.

I have noticed, in upmarket, a decline in prices of houses. I commonly saw apartments from 30m and houses from 50m a while back. But with all these Edenville and Suraya issues, upmarket prices seem to be readjusting...

Sasha
#7 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:11:41 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/5/2007
Posts: 627
I've gone through the report and I have to agree with mwanahisa and muganda. It is not representative of the countrywide figures as alluded.

But I think HassConsult are onto something big here. They will definately need to collaborate with other developers and agents to collate this info into something worth investing in. Considering the dearth of info on real estate, I believe there are many people, me included who would be willing to part with some Kshs to access this info!

I see the average rent for Kitengela is higher than for South C! Really?
kadonye
#8 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 12:51:39 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
I still think this is a good effortApplause Applause

On the first page, they expressly tell us that the info is for upper and middle residentials

According to real estate economics areas like Kileleshwa,Hurlingham and South C are middle income while Umoja would fall under low income housing

Thus their results are just a reflection of their sample and classification

What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
muganda
#9 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:04:14 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 9/15/2006
Posts: 3,905
No no no... this is why it's important to take the step of actually reading the report. This is fabulous, fantastic read! For the first time in my life, I can actually answer the question:

What's the average rate of return for properties in the last 10yrs? Fabulous.
And what will the effect of this report be? More information = better planning and better buying.
Hass Consult Quarter 3 Year 2010 Report.


BUYING SNAPSHOTS:
* Average Kes 19m
* 4-6 bed Kes 28m
* 1-3 bed Kes 10m

RENTAL SNAPSHOTS:
* Average Kes 93,959
* 4-6 bed Kes 137,000
* 1-3 bed Kes 54,000

The average price and rentals per suburb on page 8 is more comforting and realistic - though some questions remain?

sheep
#10 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 2:30:40 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 7/24/2008
Posts: 781
what of other towns?
The utimate goal of investing is to buy low sell high;if we re-write this core equation in psychology terms it becomes buy fear sell greed.
Scubidu
#11 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:03:02 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@mwanahisa. good analysis. why don't you do some sort of survey. Maybe ask the guys on wazua to give you rents and prices for the areas where they live. It would give you a wealth of information. But I love the initiative Hass has taken. I wish many more developers would collaborate with them.

As muganda said if you can calculate returns or rental yields you can see things really changing, more transparency, identify the bubbles. Would a fund manager or insurance firms be interested in such info, I think they would. Everyday Kenyan's savings are heading away from financial assets into these kind of assets, real estate, but you're right the info has to be more comprehensive.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
kadonye
#12 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:17:21 PM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 5/30/2009
Posts: 1,390
@scubidu, if mwanahisa did his wazua survey,it would have issues also.How many wazuans live in Karen?How many reside in Huruma?After looking at the report, I believe Hass made the specifics of the report clear when they specified that it was for middle n upper class housing.The issue here is how to define 'middle class' and 'upper class'
What a wicked man I am!The things I want to do,I don't do.The things I don't want to do I find myself doing
hisah
#13 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 8:33:27 PM
Rank: Chief


Joined: 8/4/2010
Posts: 8,977
The summary title is the clincher - "Property market rides despite developers' oversupply of large apartments."

Oversupply of large apartments in the leafy suburbs while a scarcity in the low class areas. I wish there was a way of knowing which banks have backed the loans for these oversupplied large apartments. Doesn't this present a compelling case for a default scenario on these property without occupancy or buyers?
$15/barrel oil... The commodities lehman moment arrives as well as Sovereign debt volcano!
Scubidu
#14 Posted : Thursday, October 14, 2010 9:26:18 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/4/2009
Posts: 700
Location: Nairobi
@kadonye. You'd be surprized where people live. Ive lived in Karen for practically my whole life, until recently. The point is someone knows someone else who lives somewhere else. If one wants to question the accuracy of the Hass report why not just get guys to post samples from their neighbourhoods on wazua...all hypothetical, you don't actually have to live there...wazua already has a fantasy game based on price movements alone, no disclosure on amounts required. Off course the alternative is to not know what's going on and just buy property by flipping a coin.

@hisah. you've got a point they cud be sitting on huge finance costs, at least this is what a contact tells me... though I think the context at the time was wrt non residential property...humm worth looking into.
“We are the middle children of history man, no purpose or place. We have no great war, no great depression. Our great war is a spiritual war, our great depression is our lives!" – Tyler Durden
Iborian
#15 Posted : Friday, October 15, 2010 12:34:18 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 4/17/2009
Posts: 194
It is a good effort by Hass Consult. And who is to begrudge them for milking it for all its worth. The publicity they get is worth tons of marketing exposure.

The folks at the Kenya Bureau of Statistics should take this up. I believe they have the mandate if not the resources.
Sasha
#16 Posted : Friday, October 15, 2010 2:04:38 PM
Rank: Veteran


Joined: 9/5/2007
Posts: 627
Was hoping I would get info on Nakuru properties. Have some interest there. Any one with any info?
the sage
#17 Posted : Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:33:32 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/20/2008
Posts: 367
@All, is there an index that measures actual rent paid as opposed to what is advertised?
Toshi
#18 Posted : Thursday, October 21, 2010 10:59:23 AM
Rank: Member


Joined: 3/11/2009
Posts: 38
@mwanahisa & scubidoo, thanks for sharing this. I have tried accessing the report but Hass Consult's site is down. I kindly request anyone who may have it so share it with me at mr.biz@solution4u.com
The property boom is of concern to me though; methinks realestate in Kenya right now is like fighting for a seat in the titanic; give it 6 years to sink, maybe? The guru said it himself, "fearful when others are greedy, and greedy when others are fearful"; there's only so much the market can rise..
Possession of material riches, without inner peace, is like dying of thirst while bathing in a lake.
Djinn
#19 Posted : Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:16:58 AM
Rank: Elder


Joined: 11/13/2008
Posts: 1,565
Sasha wrote:
I've gone through the report and I have to agree with mwanahisa and muganda. It is not representative of the countrywide figures as alluded.

But I think HassConsult are onto something big here. They will definately need to collaborate with other developers and agents to collate this info into something worth investing in. Considering the dearth of info on real estate, I believe there are many people, me included who would be willing to part with some Kshs to access this info!

I see the average rent for Kitengela is higher than for South C! Really?


@Sasha and also Mwanahisa - you both think the figures for Buru Buru and South C are unjustifiably lower than Kitengela (or Thika). If these are average figures, from an SQ/bedsitter to a maisonnet (or even a grand mansion like we sometimes see in Thika or Kitengela), then I would agree. Areas like Thika town and Kitengela are mainly (not exclusively) for the driving working class who mostly commute to Nairobi - these areas are not littered with bedsitters/SQs for rent and typically sit on more than an eighth an acre vis a vis the smaller plots in Buru and South B which, owing to landlords building extensions and letting out, house small dwellings whose rent brings down the average. I agree Kitengela and Thika also have small houses but not as many bedsitters/SQs being leased.

If you take a typical 4 bedroom in South C - attracting rent of 40-45k (or Buru at 35-40k) - then add it to an SQ/Bedsitter attracting 5-8k, then we see the math getting distorted. Then look at the density (the number to derive the average) and it gets even worse.

So, in Kitengela/Thika, there are fewer dwellings per square kilometre. And lets remember Kitengela and Thika are whole towns whereas South C and Buru Buru are estates.
Seles83
#20 Posted : Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:08:18 PM
Rank: Member


Joined: 11/9/2007
Posts: 288
Location: OZ
Kenya is a lucrative country to invest in..very high ROI. The property market is far from any collapse but stagnation is bound to be happen..

The real kicker that hurts so much is that most houses are targeted at middle class (Middle & Upper). The Real opportunity will be when mortagages will be available for middle lower ( mortagage product tailors for guys earning a net 35k and above).

Trust me those days are coming..you dont wanna be caught standing..aside..

Happy hunting..
More monies, more problems...
Users browsing this topic
Guest
2 Pages12>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Copyright © 2024 Wazua.co.ke. All Rights Reserved.